Do non-experts really appreciate the work and knowledge of experts?

[Pete Harcoff]

I've noticed that in some cases (particularly with creationists, but in other cases as well) non-experts seem to view their own knowledge as on par or even trumping experts in a certain field. For example, I've worked as a computer tech in the past and it's always amazed me the certain people that will happily diagnose or suggest fixes for a PC issue when they clearly don't have a clue.

I can only imagine how scientists must feel when confronted by obviously un-educated and un-trained creationists. It makes me wonder if people really appreciate the work that goes into those disciplines

I took this paleontology-related course I took on dinosaurs last semester. During the course the instructor showed various videos of scientists and grad students doing real work related to dinosaur fossils. I was taken aback by the detail of the work that was involved in the study of those fossils (particularly anatomical reconstructions) and also the background knowledge required to do that work.

But then I come here and I see some creationists making conclusions about fossils based on low-res diagrams or photos grabbed off a web site... Are you kidding me? There is no way I'm going to take some person's ad-hoc opinion seriously over people working in that field.

Now this isn't to say that scientists are infallible. They're not. But if look into the depth of knowledge and work involved in paleontological research, it makes you appreciate things a lot more when it comes to fossils.

 

[Hydra009]

What I'm struck by is their amazing ability to completely assess all the evidence related to evolution in about the same time it takes to take out the trash. Like demanding evidence for evolution at 3am and then claiming victory 5 minutes later because no new posts are up, skimming over a TO or mainstream science article with a demonstrated lack of comprension and then handwaiving the data, the ability to expertly assess a hominid fossil as "a man with rickets" by glancing at a jpeg, etc. It boggles the mind how on one hand, creationists try to convey expert knowledge in very, very difficult fields, but on the other hand, generally don't have much in the way of science education and often repeatedly goof up basic science concepts, like what a scientific theory is.

The sad truth is it's just a rhetorical game - they couldn't care less about either the experts or the evidence.

 

[Merlin]

I appreceate and respect their hard work.
I disagree with *some* of their concluisions, but I respect their effort.

 

[caravelair]

I appreceate and respect their hard work.
I disagree with *some* of their concluisions, but I respect their effort.

what makes you more qualified to assess their conlcusions than other experts, who do rigorously try to disprove these conclusions in the peer review process?

 

[Aron-Ra]

I come here and I see some creationists making conclusions about fossils based on low-res diagrams or photos grabbed off a web site... Are you kidding me?

These people are following Martin Luther's lead, and rejecting reason itself in favor of priori dogma.

I talked to a guy on Talk.Origins who said dinosaurs were an atheist hoax. He said he reached over the rail in a museum and scratched one of the fossil displays -already convinced that it couldn't be real, and discovered it was made of dental plaster. When I tried to explain to him why plaster casts are often used, he said I was just making up excuses as an attempted cover-up. At about the same time, another poster claimed that all the dinosaur skeletons in books were all frauds too. He said he knew this because he happened on a website that taught how to make dinosaur-looking skeletons out of last night's chicken bones.

These people don't give a care about acadamia nor anything real. How can someone be so consistently proven to be absolutely wrong about absolutely everything, 100% of the time, for such a long time, and still claim thiers is the absolute truth?

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Dinosaurs are an atheist hoax? Wow, that is insane.

I must admit, I do view the more extreme creationist postings the same way. When I see people dive into things like global scientific conspiracies my brain just stops and says "um, reality check?"

It's impossible to take creationists seriously when you see some of the more extreme views out there.

 

[Dracil]

Hey, don't forget the kids who're barely into high school (or even middle school) who somehow think they know better than the experts as well!

Pride + Jack Chick do not make a good combination.

 

[Merlin]

what makes you more qualified to assess their conlcusions than other experts, who do rigorously try to disprove these conclusions in the peer review process?

It's called freedom!
I am free to think or believe anything I choose without others dictating to me what I must think because they think they know better.

 

[TheInstant]

It's called freedom!
I am free to think or believe anything I choose without others dictating to me what I must think because they think they know better.

The question is not whether or not you have the right to disagree with the experts, it is why you think you are more qualified to assess the evidence than they are.

 

[Dracil]

It's called freedom!
I am free to think or believe anything I choose without others dictating to me what I must think because they think they know better.

Great, then perhaps Creationists will stop trying to dictate what other people's childrens should be taught in school.

 

[Merlin]

The question is not whether or not you have the right to disagree with the experts, it is why you think you are more qualified to assess the evidence than they are.

What does it matter what I think?
I have the right to think it.

 

[Merlin]

Great, then perhaps Creationists will stop trying to dictate what other people's childrens should be taught in school.

I agree completely.
As should creationists not dictate there views for others.

 

[Aron-Ra]

It's called freedom!
I am free to think or believe anything I choose without others dictating to me what I must think because they think they know better.

Wait a minute. You feel qualifed to tell the whole of the learned scientific community that you can believe whatever you want, and that means that you can confidently tell all the most expert specialists they're all wrong -even though you have no idea even what they're even talking about?!

 

[Merlin]

Wait a minute. You feel qualifed to tell the whole of the learned scientific community that you can believe whatever you want, and that means that you can confidently tell all the most expert specialists they're all wrong -even though you have no idea even what they're even talking about?!

I haven't said anyone is wrong.

 

[TheInstant]

What does it matter what I think?
I have the right to think it.

I would hope that it matters to you. Does it bother you at all that the experts in these fields, who have spent years learning about and analyzing fossils, etc. draw different conclusions than you? Or, assuming your views are similar to other creationists (I could of course be wrong about this because I don't know your views exactly), that they draw different conclusions than creation "scientists" who's credentials, if they have scientific credentials at all, never seem to be in the field of study that they are criticizing?

 

[dad]

Wait a minute. You feel qualifed to tell the whole of the learned scientific community that you can believe whatever you want, and that means that you can confidently tell all the most expert specialists they're all wrong -even though you have no idea even what they're even talking about?!

If she doesn't I do. I can also tell them they are wrong in many things.
Not on things they actually know, but on the doctrines of devils some try to pawn off as science. Like that we are animals, and all came from the same ancestor. That's just the way it is. I think that many Christians who were morally unable to proceed with higher education because of the thick Godless beliefs there, ought to have a class action suit, and sue for all the bucks they may have made if not percecuted! That should be a laugh.

 

[Merlin]

I would hope that it matters to you. Does it bother you at all that the experts in these fields, who have spent years learning about and analyzing fossils, etc. draw different conclusions than you? Or, assuming your views are similar to other creationists (I could of course be wrong about this because I don't know your views exactly), that they draw different conclusions than creation "scientists" who's credentials, if they have scientific credentials at all, never seem to be in the field of study that they are criticizing?

I have no problem with any scientist studying fossils or drawing any conclusions about how bones might have fit together.

I do have a problem with their extrapolating there findings into areas outside their field of expertise, such as the one and only possibility of the biological origins of the fossils.

 

[Caphi]

I have no problem with any scientist studying fossils or drawing any conclusions about how bones might have fit together.

I do have a problem with their extrapolating there findings into areas outside their field of expertise, such as the one and only possibility of the biological origins of the fossils.

Not the one and only, no. That's impossible for anyone, whether the sphere is science or theology or philosophy. But the explanation which is by far the most likely based on logic and evidence? Yes, that can be provided.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

These people are following Martin Luther's lead, and rejecting reason itself in favor of priori dogma. They are insane.

without agreeing to the whole statement, there is a point of truth in this. Luther opened up the door to sola Scriptura which resulting in a false notion that everyone is equally qualified to read the Scriptures, or that everything in the Scriptures is equally accessible to the common sense of the general population. Neither of which Luther actually taught or believed, but both of which are very common in the 20thC evangelical or fundamentalist communities.

What does it matter what I think?
I have the right to think it.


everyone has a right to their opinion, but no one has a right to demand that i take their opinion seriously unless they have done their homework
Pastor H.Braum, Vista Community Church early 1980's

does it matter to you that your ideas are roughly correspondent to reality?

 

[dad]

These people are following Martin Luther's lead, and rejecting reason itself in favor of priori dogma. They are insane.

without agreeing to the whole statement, there is a point of truth in this. Luther opened up the door to sola Scriptura which resulting in a false notion that everyone is equally qualified to read the Scriptures,

They are.

or that everything in the Scriptures is equally accessible to the common sense of the general population.

Better than letting say the Catholic church sell them time off purgatory coupons, and tickets to heaven. I don't know who you think is 'unqualified' to read the bible. What are you afraid of, that they might believe it? Or maybe get something wrong?

everyone has a right to their opinion, but no one has a right to demand that i take their opinion seriously unless they have done their homework
Pastor H.Braum, Vista Community Church early 1980's

does it matter to you that your ideas are roughly correspondent to reality?

All depends on who defines 'reality'. If some define it as that we were not created, but are more like pond scum decendants, why, they ought to have their phoney little reality challenged!