Do Mormons go to Hell?

WeakAndSimple · Jan 18, 2004

Hi everybody,

I am glad to be here. I love the LORD. I love discussing his grace, goodness, love, and mercy.

I am no great scholar, nor do I have great stores of wisdom to offer, but what I do have I offer to you freely and with love. My gift is small. My knowledge and understanding is limited. I am only a mortal, with a limited perception. If I err it is because I am human. I pray that God will Forgive my weakness, and that you will be tolerant of me.

Share with me your knowledge and understanding, but most of all your love and testimony of the LORD. Please be patient with me.

"Cleave unto charity, which is greatest of all..."
"Love one another as I have loved you."
"By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Calvinist Dark Lord · Jan 18, 2004

WeakAndSimple said:
Hi everybody,

I am glad to be here. I love the LORD. I love discussing his grace, goodness, love, and mercy.

I am no great scholar, nor do I have great stores of wisdom to offer, but what I do have I offer to you freely and with love. My gift is small. My knowledge and understanding is limited. I am only a mortal, with a limited perception. If I err it is because I am human. I pray that God will Forgive my weakness, and that you will be tolerant of me.

Share with me your knowledge and understanding, but most of all your love and testimony of the LORD. Please be patient with me.

"Cleave unto charity, which is greatest of all..."
"Love one another as I have loved you."
"By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Welcome aboard, glad to have you with us.

These discussions do tend to get complex at times. The general rule of thumb that i have gone by is to check out everything to see if it's true. i suppose the best advice to be given is already written:

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

I Thessalonians 5:20, KJV

Regards,

CDL

MormonFriend · Jan 18, 2004

skylark1 said:
MormonFriend,

skylark1 said:
After reading your sequential posts of your analogy of the ladder (#422), and your story of the money paid for the hotel room (#423), it seems clear to me that it is best to stick with the Bible, and use any anaolgies, parables, and statements found there.

Jesus did not say that he is the poles of a ladder, and that we are to add the rungs. He said:

John 14:6

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 10:9

I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Revelation 3:20

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

I do not see anyplace where Jesus speaks of "steps" and progression. Climbing the rungs of a ladder is so much more complicated than simply opening the door! When we open the door, He will come to us.

It is grace.

Thanks for the effort Skylark. Perhaps I did not make it clear that this analogy was an example of how I perceive that salvation is by grace, and then demonstrates where works actually are part of His grace. Of course, as you pointed out, "Jesus did not say that he is the poles of a ladder, and that we are to add the rungs." That is how my heart told my mind that it works.

Revelation 3:20

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

There is no literal door, that is figurative. The knocking is His voice, not His knuckles tapping a door. I hear His voice in the scriptures and they tell me what to do. Doing them is an action. Opening the door is a figurative action. He cannot come in our open door unless we provide the action of opening it, or in other words, doing the literal things He commanded us to do is figuratively described as opening the door.

My analogy tries to tie this together with other topics that are essential to the whole plan of life, which topics are our separation from God (the deep pit) and its purpose of refining us as a necessary preparation to live with Him again. How could we dwell in His presence if we continue to carry the pride and selfishness that burdens us in this life? Climbing the ladder as I described cannot be accomplished without obeying the laws that Jesus taught us, and the result of living them is the only key of shedding that pride and selfishness. Without His grace, we would have never known how to do this as He commanded us to do. He not only taught us by word, but also by example and said follow me.

A quote from the BoM has an intriguing concept that merits a Biblical question. It is speaking of death bed repentance.

Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world. (Book of Mormon | Alma 34:34)

My question would be, if we do not overcome the world in this life:

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

(1 John 5:4 - 5)

.and we die, what will give us the ability there to do what we would not do here in this life? If we go to heaven, and live the same tendencies we do here before overcoming, then heaven will become polluted and be as ugly as it is here.

Of course, as I said, this is what I hear the Spirit say. It does not speak for you or anyone else, unless you hear and feel the same Spirit as you read it. I find as I share this with LDS friends, it sparks other thoughts from them that build on it and edifies me.

So, if nothing else, you might have a better insight of what makes us what we are.

God bless you Skylark, your God and mine.

Darell

happyinhisgrace · Jan 18, 2004

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

(1 John 5:4 - 5)

That is one of my favorite passages. Jesus overcame the world when he died on the cross for us and through him we may have eternal life. so we over come death (that is the result from the sins of the world) and live forever through Jesus.

I don't think that applies to the BofM scripture post that you quoted, which seems to state that we will not in fact inheret a new nature (overcome) when we die and go to God but that we will rather keep our same earthly nature when we die. Which would indicate that Jesus didn't overcome the world at all.

The Biblical scripture and the BofM scripture seem to contradict each other....maybe you could find a different Biblical scripture that would point out more of what you are trying to convey?

God Bless-
Grace

calgal · Jan 18, 2004

Tom:

I read the long and convoluted, out of context quotes you cobbled together like quilt and came to one simple conclusion: You have no idea what these writers actually said or what the meaning of any of the writings are. If I do a Google search on the Words Mountain Meadows, I get a couple towns, a high school, the worst event of domestic terror before Oklahoma City and Pictures of Bunnies in meadows by mountains. Does this combination of items mean Mormons killed bunnies, a high school, several towns AND the Fancher Party? Using your logic and style of research, that would be a logical conclusion. The reality is that the field by the mountain inspired the naming of the towns and the High School and the act of violence was a single solitary act which can be traced to the local equivalent of Al Queda led by John D Lee. Simple as that.

TOmNossor said:
Der Alter,

I hope to say a few things here.

I think that neither you nor I have said a lot of new things in the last few posts here concerning deification. I think that neither you nor I have said a lot of new things concerning eternal matter on our other thread (this is an area of continued research for me so it seems likely I will have more to say on this one day). With these opinions of mine in mind and with your willingness to question my honesty I think it best that I do not attempt to continue to say the same thing over and over again more.

I want to be clear. I do not feel you have proven that the Bible does not speak of deification. I do not feel you have proven that Jerome or Irenaeus or a number of other ECF do not speak of deification. I do not feel you have proven that EO and Catholics do not believe in a form of deification. A believe in deification being defined as the orthodoxy (within a certain religious tradition) of the statement that men my become gods.

I want to be clear. I do not feel you have proven that St. Justin Marytr did not believe in eternal matter. I do not feel that you have proven the early Christian who added or discovered additional verses in 1st Clement did not believe in eternal matter. I do not feel you have proven that Moses does not speak of preexistent matter. I do feel that I have proven the Hermogenes who walked with Paul the apostle did believe in eternal matter. I do not feel you have proven that the reason Hermogenes ceased to walk with Paul was the heresy of eternal matter.

The only thing that I never said on this board, but I would have said before corrected by you or some other person on this board is that Psalms 82 speaks most clearly of deification. I believe it was you, and you have proven to me that the text we have of Psalms 82 does not point in any reasonable way to deification. You may expect that you will not see me post Psalms 82 and not acknowledge the gods=judges aspect of the text (note, I reserve the right to question this more, especially in light of what Jesus said about it, but I will not neglect to acknowledge what has been proven to me by you).

To my knowledge all of the other assertions that I have made in the past, I am likely to make in the future. It is either my thickheaded stupidity that has blinded me to the truths you have shared or your lack of thoroughness in proving things, that will result in me continuing to say these things. I encourage you not impugn my honesty and integrity as I try to interact on this board. You are welcome to say that you have shown me much and then continue to show me more, but by my accounting, for whatever reason, you have not proven TO ME your case.

Now I do believe that your posts on this thread are inappropriate and against the rules. I still invite you to edit or withdraw them.

Also, edit, apologize, or withdraw not withstanding if somehow you feel I can serve you by continuing to engage you in either of these discussions all you must do is ask. I ask you to specifically say,

TOm please engage me further with respect too

If you post further evidence, call this post nonsense, or other things; I will likely (but not definitely) just move one.

If you do post,

TOm please engage me further with respect too

and I miss it, please send me a note. I will check in for this phrase over the next little while, but I may miss it.

You are an intelligent man and you possess an impressive knowledge of scripture and the ECF. I would very much like to have the grasp of Greek and Hebrew that you do (Latin would be cool too). May God bless you.

Charity, TOm

happyinhisgrace · Jan 18, 2004

calgal said:
This is typical LDS behavior and it reminds me a lot of the toddlers I know. The little ones of course have an excuse: they are not more than 3 years old. If these folks are LDS "apologists" then this is not a good sign for the emotional or intellectual development of Mormons. And on a happy note, Praise God for freeing those of us He chose to liberate from Mormonism! I give all glory to the Unchanging, Eternal King of Kings and Lord of Lords and to His ONLY Begotten son, Jesus!

Amen calgal,
I am in constant awe of God's almighty power and grace. Now that I see him for the true God is his, I realize what a sinful creature I am and the truth is, I don't deserve one bit of his love but even though that is the case, Jesus loved me enough to die for my sin.

Isn't it just incredible to think that if you or I were the only people on the entire earth that would be willing to accept his free gift to us, he still would have died for us? Wow, what a truly AWESOME God we serve!!!!!!!!!!!!! Praise be to the one and only God, yesterday, today and forever!!!!!!! We owe him everything, he owes us nothing and yet he paid our debt in full. Amazing!!!

God Bless-
Grace

twhite982 · Jan 19, 2004

happyinhisgrace said:
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

(1 John 5:4 - 5)

That is one of my favorite passages. Jesus overcame the world when he died on the cross for us and through him we may have eternal life. so we over come death (that is the result from the sins of the world) and live forever through Jesus.

I don't think that applies to the BofM scripture post that you quoted, which seems to state that we will not in fact inheret a new nature (overcome) when we die and go to God but that we will rather keep our same earthly nature when we die. Which would indicate that Jesus didn't overcome the world at all.

The Biblical scripture and the BofM scripture seem to contradict each other....maybe you could find a different Biblical scripture that would point out more of what you are trying to convey?

God Bless-
Grace

I think the B of M verse does very much apply in this case. Alma and John contrast each other, while Alma talks about those who knowingly reject the truth and procrastinate the day of repentance, John talks of being begotten of God because of the love we beget. And how do we show we love God? 1 John 5:2-3.

It would be very difficult for us to know someone whom we never follow and this same disposition will follow us into the after world as Alma says.

Alma 34:33-34
33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.
34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

1 John 5:1-5
1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.</I>
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Tom

MormonFriend · Jan 19, 2004

happyinhisgrace said:
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

(1 John 5:4 - 5)

That is one of my favorite passages. Jesus overcame the world when he died on the cross for us and through him we may have eternal life. so we over come death (that is the result from the sins of the world) and live forever through Jesus.

I don't think that applies to the BofM scripture post that you quoted, which seems to state that we will not in fact inheret a new nature (overcome) when we die and go to God but that we will rather keep our same earthly nature when we die. Which would indicate that Jesus didn't overcome the world at all.

The Biblical scripture and the BofM scripture seem to contradict each other....maybe you could find a different Biblical scripture that would point out more of what you are trying to convey?

God Bless-
Grace

Let me explain it for you. Apparently you did not understand it in years past.

Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world. (Book of Mormon | Alma 34:34)

He is speaking to those who are still unrepented and have not lived the Gospel. They still have the spirit of man dictating their lives, which will continue to do so in the hereafter. When people overcome the world by following the example of Jesus (1 John 5:4 - 5), they are sanctified and the new Spirit they now have will be the Spirit that has power to possess their bodies in the eternal world. This can happen before death and as we await the icing on the cake of the ressurection.

happyinhisgrace · Jan 19, 2004

twhite982 said:
I think the B of M verse does very much apply in this case. Alma and John contrast each other, while Alma talks about those who knowingly reject the truth and procrastinate the day of repentance, John talks of being begotten of God because of the love we beget. And how do we show we love God? 1 John 5:2-3.

It would be very difficult for us to know someone whom we never follow and this same disposition will follow us into the after world as Alma says.

Alma 34:33-34
33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.
34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

1 John 5:1-5
1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.</I>
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Tom

Well they still seem contradictory to me.. Speaking of 2 different things...I am so tired though, perhaps I could elaberate on this tommarrow

God Bless-
Grace

happyinhisgrace · Jan 19, 2004

Let me explain it for you. Apparently you did not understand it in years past.

I was all gunhoe on reading all of what you had written in your responce to me but changed my mind after the above statement. I was talked down to and treated in a condesending manner by so called LDS priesthood holders my entire LDS life and I will no longer tolorate it. Jesus is my highpriest and the only one that is allowed to "speak" to me in that manner.

I said that the verse pointed out from the BofM did not seem to convey the same messege of the Bible scripture you pointed out....apperently that was enough of a me stepping over the bounds of what the lds male members will allow so you have to throw in a personal insult (once again) assuming I don't understand anything.

Things like this just reafirm to me the glory and grace that I have found in the real Jesus rather than the pompous condesending self superior attitude that is found in the LDS church.

Praise God he led me away for the evil and into his loving truth

God Bless-
Grace

twhite982 · Jan 19, 2004

happyinhisgrace said:
Well they still seem contradictory to me.. Speaking of 2 different things...I am so tired though, perhaps I could elaberate on this tommarrow

God Bless-
Grace

Get some rest Grace and don't worry the battle will be waiting for you tommorow.

I understand that they are not exactly the same and I actually stated they contrast each other, Alma to the negative and John in the positive.

However the principles which underline these verses are linked together, at least as I intepret them.

Sweet dreams.

TW

twhite982 · Jan 19, 2004

happyinhisgrace said:
Let me explain it for you. Apparently you did not understand it in years past.

I was all gunhoe on reading all of what you had written in your responce to me but changed my mind after the above statement. I was talked down to and treated in a condesending manner by so called LDS priesthood holders my entire LDS life and I will no longer tolorate it. Jesus is my highpriest and the only one that is allowed to "speak" to me in that manner.

I said that the verse pointed out from the BofM did not seem to convey the same messege of the Bible scripture you pointed out....apperently that was enough of a me stepping over the bounds of what the lds male members will allow so you have to throw in a personal insult (once again) assuming I don't understand anything.

Things like this just reafirm to me the glory and grace that I have found in the real Jesus rather than the pompous condesending self superior attitude that is found in the LDS church.

Praise God he led me away for the evil and into his loving truth

God Bless-
Grace

Grace,

Possibly MormonFriend could've worded better his intial comment, but as I read the entire quote I didn't see that he was trying to insult you. I felt that he was trying to explain this verse in Alma as he felt you weren't grasping the intent of his post.

Its cast a bad light upon us when we throw out cutting blanket statements that really don't have much benefit here.

You have your reasons for leaving the church and I do not question them for I see that you have found solice and joy in your current circumstance.

Can we refocus and try to get back to the topic, which really is somewhat baffling: DO MORMONS GO TO HELL?

TW

MormonFriend · Jan 19, 2004

happyinhisgrace said:
Let me explain it for you. Apparently you did not understand it in years past.

I was all gunhoe on reading all of what you had written in your responce to me but changed my mind after the above statement. I was talked down to and treated in a condesending manner by so called LDS priesthood holders my entire LDS life and I will no longer tolorate it. Jesus is my highpriest and the only one that is allowed to "speak" to me in that manner.

I said that the verse pointed out from the BofM did not seem to convey the same messege of the Bible scripture you pointed out....apperently that was enough of a me stepping over the bounds of what the lds male members will allow so you have to throw in a personal insult (once again) assuming I don't understand anything.

Things like this just reafirm to me the glory and grace that I have found in the real Jesus rather than the pompous condesending self superior attitude that is found in the LDS church.

Praise God he led me away for the evil and into his loving truth

God Bless-
Grace

Grace, when I said: "Let me explain it for you. Apparently you did not understand it in years past."
. . . it was a simle reply in response to your statement: "I don't think that applies to the BofM scripture post that you quoted"

What you do not know is that I changed that intro 3 times to avoid sounding offensive. Yes, I can now see how you could take it as you did, but there are other ways it could be taken. I see that TW acknowledged I could have been more delicate. Please give me the benifit of the doubt, I am not one who means to offend. I often speak my mind directly, but I also try to speak in neutral tones so that I do not appear condescending. "I often go walking, in meadow of clover," with two left feet in my social graces. I am sorry that I stepped on your toes.

MFriend

Der Alte · Jan 19, 2004

TOmNossor said:
Der Alter,

I hope to say a few things here.

I want to be clear. I do not feel you have proven that the Bible does not speak of deification.

That belief is not part of historic evangelical Christianity, your one (1) apostate ex-Catholic priest notwithstanding. Therefore, it is not incumbent on me to prove that the Bible does not teach deification, it is incumbent on you to prove that it does. Im waiting for the proof texts, I believe Toms777 has asked that question repeatedly.

I do not feel you have proven that Jerome or Irenaeus or a number of other ECF do not speak of deification. I do not feel you have proven that EO and Catholics do not believe in a form of deification. A believe in deification being defined as the orthodoxy (within a certain religious tradition) of the statement that men my become gods.

First I am unable to confirm that Jerome said anything on the subject. I cannot find the writing in question. And of course, you feel that I have not proven that any ECF writer does not speak of deification. That is the BoA presupposition that you bring to the text, and nothing will dissuade you. I think that the last sentence here should begin I believe. If so then you need to post some convincing evidence.

Every time I have addressed this, I have shown within the writings being considered, the ECF writer who uses the word deification, clearly does not mean men becoming gods. And there is not one single writer, of any denomination, except LDS, who believes that deification means men may become gods, be a god over their own little world, birthing "spirit" children, send them to their own world, so they can progress, or exalt themselves, etc., etc., etc. Therefore it is unscholarly and dishonest to keep implying that it does. Unless a historical writing means exactly what LDS believe then it is totally irrelevant to this discussion.

I want to be clear. I do not feel you have proven that St. Justin Marytr did not believe in eternal matter.

This is a joke. The perfect example of cognitive dissonance. I note you did not address this in the thread where I posted my last response [here]. Justin said the poets called your so-called preexistent matter, erebus. I proved conclusively that erebus means darkness. You are so adamantly intent on proving that JS and his BoA correct, you simply refuse to see or acknowledge when proof to the contrary is presented.

I do not feel that you have proven the early Christian who added or discovered additional verses in 1st Clement did not believe in eternal matter.

Another joke. I do not have to prove anything about the pseudonymous addition to Clement. It is incumbent on you to prove that whoever forged the addition, in Clementss name, was a Christian, and that what he wrote was a doctrine held by the church. But you are not interested in the truth, are you? You evidently will quote anything, written by anybody, and call it Christian, so long as it supports your presuppositions.

I do not feel you have proven that Moses does not speak of preexistent matter.

Of course you dont. You have your BoA presuppositions and you simply refuse to see anything which contradicts that notion. The majority view presented by the Jewish Encyclopedia supports creation from nothing. As I posted [here], even the Talmudic scholars acknowledge that in Hebrew there is no other word, than bara, used in Genesis, to describe creation from nothing. Thus, the fact that bara, seems to suggest a forming or shaping from some material, is not sufficient to prove creation from preexistent or eternal matter. And as I pointed out the majority Jewish view is that God created from nothing as is the overwhelming majority of the ECF.

I do feel that I have proven the Hermogenes who walked with Paul the apostle did believe in eternal matter. I do not feel you have proven that the reason Hermogenes ceased to walk with Paul was the heresy of eternal matter.

You have proved no such thing! Your only so-called proof was Tertullian, and you immediately dismiss his writing as false, because he identifies two men named Hermogenes, one contemporary with Paul, and one contemporary with himself. Hermogenes apostasized from Paul. Since Hermogenes was an apostate, it is incumbent on you to prove which, if any, of his beliefs were scriptural. And your only source for doing so is Tertullian, and you have already impugned his reliability. You cannot eat your cake and have it too. If Tertullian is wrong in anything he writes, you must prove it, not just assert, it.

Here are a few more sources which clearly show that the early church did not believe in creation from eternal or preexistent matter.

Address of Tatian to the Greeks. [a.d. 110-172.] Student of Justin Martyr

Chapter V.-The Doctrine of the Christians as to the Creation of the World.

God was in the beginning; but the beginning, we have been taught, is the power of the Logos. For the Lord of the universe, who is Himself the necessary ground (u9po/stasij) of all being, in as much as no creature was yet in existence, was alone; but in as much as He was all power, Himself the necessary ground of things visible and invisible, with Him were all things; with Him, by Logos-power (dia\ logikh=j duna/mewj), the Logos Himself also, who was in Him, subsists. [. . .] And as the Logos begotten in the beginning, begat in turn our world, having first created for Himself the necessary matter, so also I, in imitation of the Logos, being begotten again, and having become possessed of the truth, am trying to reduce to order the confused matter which is kindred with myself. For matter is not, like God, without beginning, nor, as having no beginning, is of equal power with God ; it is begotten, and not produced by any other being, but brought into existence by the Framer of all things alone.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-02/anf02-37.htm#P1114_299739

Theophilus to Autolycus Book II, [a.d. 115-168-181.]

But Plato and those of his school acknowledge indeed that God is uncreated, and the Father and Maker of all things; but then they maintain that matter as well as God is uncreated, and aver that it is coeval with God. But if God is uncreated and matter uncreated, God is no longer, according to the Platonists, the Creator of all things, nor, so far as their opinions hold, is the monarchy of God established. And further, as God, because He is uncreated, is also unalterable; so if matter, too, were uncreated, it also would be unalterable, and equal to God; for that which is created is mutable and alterable, but that which is uncreated is immutable and unalterable.
As, therefore, in all these respects God is more powerful than man, so also in this; that out of things that are not He creates and has created things that are, and whatever He pleases, as He pleases.

And Moses, who lived many years before Solomon, or, rather, the Word of God by him as by an instrument, says, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." First he named the "beginning," and "creation," then he thus introduced God; for not lightly and on slight occasion is it right to name God. For the divine wisdom foreknew that some would trifle and name a multitude of gods that do not exist. In order, therefore, that the living God might be known by His works, and that [it might be known that] by His Word God created the heavens and the earth, and all that is therein, he said, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Then having spoken of their creation, he explains to us: "And the earth was without form, and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God moved upon the water." This, sacred Scripture teaches at the outset, to show that matter, from which God made and fashioned the world, was in some manner created, being produced by God.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-02/anf02-42.htm#P1469_430289

A Plea For the Christians
By Athenagoras the Athenian: Philosopher and Christian [a.d. 177.]

But, since our doctrine acknowledges one God, the Maker of this universe, who is Himself uncreated (for that which is does not come to be, but that which is not) but has made all things by the Logos which is from Him, we are treated unreasonably in both respects, in that we are both defamed and persecuted.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-02/anf02-46.htm#P2139_587041

Clement of Alexandria The Instructor Book II [a.d. 153-193-217.]

But nothing exists, the cause of whose existence is not supplied by God.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-02/anf02-52.htm#P3288_976824

Clement of Alexandria-The Stromata, or Miscellanies Book V [a.d. 153-193-217.]

This discourse respecting God is most difficult to handle. For since the first principle of everything is difficult to find out, the absolutely first and oldest principle, which is the cause of all other things being and having been, is difficult to exhibit. For bow can that be expressed which is neither genus, nor difference, nor species, nor individual, nor number; nay more, is neither an event, nor that to which an event happens? No one can rightly express Him wholly. For on account of His greatness He is ranked as the All, and is the Father of the universe. Nor are any parts to be predicated of Him. For the One is indivisible; wherefore also it is infinite, not considered with reference to inscrutability, but with reference to its being without dimensions, and not having a limit. And therefore it is without form and name. And if we name it, we do not do so properly, terming it either the One, or the Good, or Mind, or Absolute Being, or Father, or God, or Creator or Lord. We speak not as supplying His name; but for want, we use good names, in order that the mind may have these as points of support, so as not to err in other respects. For each one by itself does not express God; but all together are indicative of the power of the Omnipotent. For predicates are expressed either from what belongs to things themselves, or from their mutual relation. But none of these are admissible in reference to God. Nor any more is He apprehended by the science of demonstration. For it depends on primary and better known principles. But there is nothing antecedent to the Unbegotten.

And so Plato expressly said, "Whether was it that the world had no beginning of its existence, or derived its beginning from some beginning? For being visible, it is tangible; and being tangible, it has a body." Again, when he says, "It is a difficult task to find the Maker and Father of this universe," he not only showed that the universe was created, but points out that it was generated by him as a son, and that he is called its father, as deriving its being from him alone, and springing from non-existence.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-02/anf02-65.htm#P7190_2189438

Table 2.1: Creation Ex Nihilo in the First Four Centuries AD
Writer -- Date -- Source of Creation -- Reference

Unknown-- BCE -- ExN --2 Maccabees 7:28
Essenes of Qumran -- BCE -- ExN -- Community Rule (1QS 3.15)
Philo (Jewish writer) -- c.20 BC-c.50 AD -- ?--Creation, 7-10
Hermas c.90-c.150 -- ExN -- Shepherd, Mandate 1.1
Justin Martyr -- c.100-c.165 -- Pre -- 1 Apology 59.
Tatian -- 110-180 -- ExN -- Address 5:1-
Irenaeus of Lyons -- c.115-202 -- ExN -- Heresies 2.10.4
Clement of Alexandria -- c.150-c.215. -- Pre -- Miscellanies 5.89.5-6
Theophilus of Antioch -- c.180 -- ExN -- Autolycus, 2.4
Tertullian -- c.160-225 -- ExN -- Hermogenes, 1-2
Origen -- 185-253 -- ExN -- Principles, 1.7.1 - 2.2.
Lactantius -- 240-320 -- ExN -- Divine Institutes 1.3
Victorinus of Pettau -- ExN -- d. c. 304 -- Creation
Athanasius -- 300-373 -- ExN -- Incarnation 3:1-2
Ephrem the Syrian -- 306-373 -- ExN -- Commentary on Genesis 1.2
Ambrose of Milan -- 339-397 -- ExN -- Hexameron 1.16; 4.31
John Chrysostom -- 347-419/420 -- ExN -- Homily on Genesis 2.5, 10-11
Augustine of Hippo -- 354-430 -- ExN -- Confessions 12.7

http://www.robibrad.demon.co.uk/Chapter2.htm

dabum2004 · Jan 24, 2004

I had always thought, that the true characteristics of a true Christian, were those characteristics that Jesus Christ had while he was upon the Earth, as well as beyond. Jesus gave us a perfect example, a manifestation of His Father in Heaven, to follow. He is perfect in all things, from justice, to mercy, to love, to fairness, and virtue. He has given us guidelines, from which we should live, in the gospel that he has bestowed upon us. He addresses all problems and answers through them.
He has given many commandments unto us, so that we may return to live with him, if we have faith in him and his words. In St Matthew 6:48:
"Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
We are compelled to follow in his footsteps, even to become like him in all things--perfect. He has given many great commandments for us to follow, and mold our lives to be like Him. He has also said, in St John 14:15, he says, "If ye love me, keep my commandments."
When it comes to judgement, even to the judgement seat of the creator of all things, we will be judged according to our life here upon the earth. All those that believe in Christ, and follow his commandments, and have done good, will have "everlasting life, and shall not come in to condemnation. (St. John 5:12)" All those that seek to do evil, shall be "resurrected unto damnation(St. John 5:29)".
Now we wouldn't want that. So, we are inherently compelled to do good in all things, so that we should not have to worry about the condemnation of our works.
Simply put, Mormons will go to hell if they seek to do evil, and deny the Spirit that beseechest them to to do good. If Mormons walk with the Lord, and seek to do good in all things, and follow His commandments, with faith that the Lord will deliver them into heaven if they do so, they will not be suffered to be cast out.
I would not be able to tell you what the judgement of Christ will be, unless I have a perfect knowledge of his doctrine, and of the Spirit of Christ. I have no idea of the judgement of Christ, and will not know until that day comes, when we will be judged. I would imagine that it would be the same for others also. Besides, it is not my place to judge, even as Christ will judge me after this life.
Be happy, live long, and prosper!

-The new guy.

"A man shall not be established by wickedness: but the root of the righteous shall not be moved. (proverbs 12:3)"

happyinhisgrace · Jan 24, 2004

dabum2004 said:
I had always thought, that the true characteristics of a true Christian, were those characteristics that Jesus Christ had while he was upon the Earth, as well as beyond. Jesus gave us a perfect example, a manifestation of His Father in Heaven, to follow. He is perfect in all things, from justice, to mercy, to love, to fairness, and virtue. He has given us guidelines, from which we should live, in the gospel that he has bestowed upon us. He addresses all problems and answers through them.
He has given many commandments unto us, so that we may return to live with him, if we have faith in him and his words. In St Matthew 6:48:
"Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
We are compelled to follow in his footsteps, even to become like him in all things--perfect. He has given many great commandments for us to follow, and mold our lives to be like Him. He has also said, in St John 14:15, he says, "If ye love me, keep my commandments."
When it comes to judgement, even to the judgement seat of the creator of all things, we will be judged according to our life here upon the earth. All those that believe in Christ, and follow his commandments, and have done good, will have "everlasting life, and shall not come in to condemnation. (St. John 5:12)" All those that seek to do evil, shall be "resurrected unto damnation(St. John 5:29)".
Now we wouldn't want that. So, we are inherently compelled to do good in all things, so that we should not have to worry about the condemnation of our works.
Simply put, Mormons will go to hell if they seek to do evil, and deny the Spirit that beseechest them to to do good. If Mormons walk with the Lord, and seek to do good in all things, and follow His commandments, with faith that the Lord will deliver them into heaven if they do so, they will not be suffered to be cast out.
I would not be able to tell you what the judgement of Christ will be, unless I have a perfect knowledge of his doctrine, and of the Spirit of Christ. I have no idea of the judgement of Christ, and will not know until that day comes, when we will be judged. I would imagine that it would be the same for others also. Besides, it is not my place to judge, even as Christ will judge me after this life.
Be happy, live long, and prosper!

-The new guy.

"A man shall not be established by wickedness: but the root of the righteous shall not be moved. (proverbs 12:3)"

What I got from your post was "if we live a good life and keep all the commandments, we will go to heaven"...
Is that what you are saying?

Grace

dabum2004 · Jan 24, 2004

happyinhisgrace said:
What I got from your post was "if we live a good life and keep all the commandments, we will go to heaven"...
Is that what you are saying?

Grace

Grace, yes. That is what I am saying.

Life is our boat, and we will meet God at the end of the river for judgement.

Thanks. I guess my mind was just swimming in thought (thus the long reply).

-The new guy

Wrigley · Jan 24, 2004

dabum2004 said:
Grace, yes. That is what I am saying.

Life is our boat, and we will meet God at the end of the river for judgement.

Thanks. I guess my mind was just swimming in thought (thus the long reply).

-The new guy

Good luck as you try to save yourself.

Toms777 · Jan 24, 2004

dabum2004 said:
Grace, yes. That is what I am saying.

Life is our boat, and we will meet God at the end of the river for judgement.

Thanks. I guess my mind was just swimming in thought (thus the long reply).

-The new guy

If our efforts alone could do it, the Jesus' sacrifice on the cross would have been unnecessary.

Newsboy1900 · Jan 24, 2004

im just wondering i herd this from a friend she was a mormon she said somethen to the effect of they believe you can have more than 1 wife is that true

Do Mormons go to Hell?

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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