Do JW's teach sound doctrine?

[playerx2006]

They teach about there not being a hell and how there if you're not one of the 144000 jews then you're going to be on earth heaven. Is this heavly supported in the scriptures?

 

[TimRout]

Welcome to the forum, Playerx!

Great question!

Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christians. They do not believe the message of the Bible, though they vehemently insist otherwise. JWs deny the divinity of Jesus Christ and the personhood of the Holy Spirit. The "Jesus" they believe in is powerless to save. The Watchtower Bible And Tract Society is so determined to preach their false gospel, they have even issued an altered version of the Bible -- the New World Translation -- that twists the Scriptures to fit their heretical doctrines. JWs are yet another example of a "salvation by works" cult who have followed the teachings of yet another false prophet (Charles Taze Russell) down the road to eternal destruction.

 

[cyberlizard]

JW's teach sound doctrine if your a JW. If your not either they are right and you are wrong, or they are wrong and you are right.

take your pick.

 

[CShephard53]

They teach about there not being a hell and how there if you're not one of the 144000 jews then you're going to be on earth heaven. Is this heavly supported in the scriptures?

Basically, no.

 

[mrscplus]

No they don't teach sound doctrine. One of the ways to judge that is to compare the New World translation and any other bible.
The translation, and all publications change everytime there is a new president. And all of the previous editions are removed from circulation.

The english bible as we know it, has many translations, but all are still available for those who wish to own them. The christian scripture has not changed it's message over many centuries. The JW scriptures have changed at least 2X's in this century alone...

 

[cyberlizard]

i think it is tough because all JW's have to do is find greek scholars who support their doctrinal position and all becomes clear for them.

if discounting the well known proof texts they use to argue their case it is still very easy to tie them up.

 

[beamishboy]

Of course not! They don't accept the Holy Trinity and they don't accept the Nicene Creed. They have generally very weird beliefs.

 

[YorkshireLass]

The Holy Trinity is not actually mentioned in the Bible, and the Nicene Creed is the product of men. I am not a JW by the way, I am playing the devil's advocate as not many JW will be on here I wouldn't imagine, they don't tend to expose themselves too much to outside influences.

God Bless

 

[beamishboy]

The Holy Trinity is not actually mentioned in the Bible, and the Nicene Creed is the product of men. I am not a JW by the way, I am playing the devil's advocate as not many JW will be on here I wouldn't imagine, they don't tend to expose themselves too much to outside influences.

God Bless

It doesn't have to be categorically mentioned for it to be real. There are enough passages in the Bible to prove indisputably the truth of the Holy Trinity. The Nicene Creed was formulated by people of God at a very early age of the church. We have to accept the intervention of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, by your reasoning, the Canon of the Bible is entirely man-made and you can choose for yourself the Apocalypse of Peter or the Gospel of Barnabas, for example, as the inspired Word of God.

 

[YorkshireLass]

There are also enough in the scriptures to support him to be son of God and not God himself too.

I am very familiar with the trinities of the Pagan religions, and I am also familiar with Constantine who was overseeing when the Creed was put into place. He only converted to Christianity on his death bed, not before. He was concerned with bringing the Pagan Tamuz / Nimrod worshippers into the Christian faith. He wanted a Universal church, which became the Catholic Church, incorporating the Goddess as Mary 'mother of god', there is so much history there, too much for me to type in here.

The canon is inspired by God, the Creed is assumed and 'written' by men IMO.

God bless

 

[cyberlizard]

we speak about the canon as though it is one canon.

however, there are two canons - the tanakh (OT) and the New Testament writings.

for those familiar with the Talmud, they will tell you that the Tanakh canon was also not formally agreed until into the third century.

Steve

 

[Gareth]

They teach about there not being a hell and how there if you're not one of the 144000 jews then you're going to be on earth heaven. Is this heavly supported in the scriptures?

It is a comfort to know there is no "Hell" is it not? Not hell in the sense of being eternally damned as is portrayed in Dante's Inferno. That a family has to give money to the priest to pray for the soul of the departed that their loved one maybe in Limbo or Purgatory and to pray to God to get that one to Heaven. It is a comfort that such a place or condition does not exist.

Now proof. The Bible says right in the beginning, God talking to Adam, that if the man disobeyed God he would die, and go back to the ground he was made from. No floating souls to hell or heaven, just nothing. Added to this are several verses to check out.
That the dead are conscious of nothing at all:- Ecc.9:5,10. Ps146:3,4.
Adam was made a soul, not given one: Ge.2:7. 1Cor.15:45.
It is man, the soul, that dies: Eze.18:4, Isa.53:12, Job11:20.
Dead are asleep, awaiting the resurrection: John11:11-14, 23-26; Acts7:60.

Now the 144,000. I don't know how other faiths tackle this one, but they don't agree with how Jehovah's Witnesses do. There are 2 classes, one has a heavenly hope, one an earthly hope. The earth the Bible says was created for a purpose (see Ecc.1:4). It will remain forever. There is nothing wrong with it, it's just some of the people on it.
The Bible says that a limited number go to heaven: Rev.5:9,10. Rev.20:4.
Jesus was the forerunner, others chosen since: Col.1:18; 1Pet.2:21.
Many others will live on earth: Ps.72:8, Rev.21:3,4.
144,000 in a special position that others do not have: Rev.14:1,3; Rev.7:4,9.

This is just a taste of some verses that can be reasoned on. Other faiths may choose to believe in other things, yet they cannot get away from the fact that there is a figure of 144,000 in the Bible. It has always been there, so it must be for a reason.

 

[CShephard53]

It is a comfort to know there is no "Hell" is it not? Not hell in the sense of being eternally damned as is portrayed in Dante's Inferno.

Sure, the people who commit infinite crimes don't get the infinite punishment they deserve *sarcasm*. Real comforting that there's no justice in the world.

That a family has to give money to the priest to pray for the soul of the departed that their loved one maybe in Limbo or Purgatory and to pray to God to get that one to Heaven. It is a comfort that such a place or condition does not exist.

That's purgatory, not hell.

Now proof. The Bible says right in the beginning, God talking to Adam, that if the man disobeyed God he would die, and go back to the ground he was made from. No floating souls to hell or heaven, just nothing. Added to this are several verses to check out.

Sure. Look at what die means:
H4191
מוּת
mûth
BDB Definition:
1) to die, kill, have one executed
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to die
1a2) to die (as penalty), be put to death
1a3) to die, perish (of a nation)
1a4) to die prematurely (by neglect of wise moral conduct)
1b) (Polel) to kill, put to death, dispatch
1c) (Hiphil) to kill, put to death
1d) (Hophal)
1d1) to be killed, be put to death
1d1a) to die prematurely
Part of Speech: verb

It's talking in a physical sense. Hell and heaven are spiritual, not physical.

That the dead are conscious of nothing at all:- Ecc.9:5,10. Ps146:3,4.

When you're physically dead, you have no working brain. Of course you're not conscious of anything. Next?

Adam was made a soul, not given one: Ge.2:7. 1Cor.15:45.
It is man, the soul, that dies: Eze.18:4, Isa.53:12, Job11:20.

Gen 2:7 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

That proves your case how?

1Co 15:45 So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Spirit and soul are two different things. Check the Greek on that one.

Eze 18:4 "Behold2005, all3605 souls5315 are Mine; the soul5315 of the father1 as well as the soul5315 of the son1121 is Mine. The soul5315 who sins2398 will die4191.

H5315
נפשׁ
nephesh
BDB Definition:
1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
1a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
1b) living being
1c) living being (with life in the blood)
1d) the man himself, self, person or individual
1e) seat of the appetites
1f) seat of emotions and passions
1g) activity of mind
1g1) dubious
1h) activity of the will
1h1) dubious
1i) activity of the character
1i1) dubious
Part of Speech: noun feminine

It's not talking about a soul, but the person, and again in a physical sense. Context determines meaning, not presuppositions.

Isa 53:11 As a result4480 of the anguish5999 of His soul5315, He will see7200 it and be satisfied7646; By His knowledge1847 the Righteous6662 One6662, My Servant5650, will justify6663 the many7227a, As He will bear5445 their iniquities5771.
Isa 53:12 Therefore3651, I will allot2505a Him a portion2505a with the great7227a, And He will divide2505a the booty7998 with the strong6099; Because8478, 834 He poured6168 out Himself5315 to death4194, And was numbered4487 with the transgressors6586; Yet He Himself1931 bore5375 the sin2399 of many7227a, And interceded6293 for the transgressors6586.

Context, that proves nothing other than a savior would save many from their sins- justification. Not that souls die.

Job 11:20 "But the eyes of the wicked will fail, And there will be no escape for them; And their hope is to breathe their last."

Physical death, not spiritual.

Dead are asleep, awaiting the resurrection: John11:11-14, 23-26; Acts7:60.

Stick the first in context, it was not the only time he referred to death as sleep. You can see the disciples followed His example in Acts. Nice try...

Now the 144,000. I don't know how other faiths tackle this one, but they don't agree with how Jehovah's Witnesses do. There are 2 classes, one has a heavenly hope, one an earthly hope. The earth the Bible says was created for a purpose (see Ecc.1:4). It will remain forever. There is nothing wrong with it, it's just some of the people on it.

Wrong, old becoming new in Revelation- old heaven, old earth pass away. Do a search.

The Bible says that a limited number go to heaven: Rev.5:9,10. Rev.20:4.

Wrong.

Rev 5:9 And they *sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
Rev 5:10 "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."

That does not back what you claim no matter how you interpret it.

Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

That does not back what you claim either.

Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
Rev 7:10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."

'A great multitude which NO ONE could count.'

Jesus was the forerunner, others chosen since: Col.1:18; 1Pet.2:21.

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

Context.

And the other verse you reference does not relate to that one in the least. Forerunner is not the right word.

Many others will live on earth: Ps.72:8, Rev.21:3,4.
144,000 in a special position that others do not have: Rev.14:1,3; Rev.7:4,9.

Psa 72:8 May he also rule from sea to sea And from the River to the ends of the earth.
That does not prove what you claim it proves.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
Rev 21:4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."

Also does not prove what you claim it proves.

Rev 7:1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree.
Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads."
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
Rev 7:5 from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand,
Rev 7:6 from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand,
Rev 7:7 from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand,
Rev 7:8 from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.
Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
Rev 7:10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."
Rev 7:11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
Rev 7:12 saying, "Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen."
Rev 7:13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"
Rev 7:14 I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15 "For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.
Rev 7:16 "They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat;
Rev 7:17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes."

Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.
Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps.
Rev 14:3 And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless.

Neither of those prove that they have special privileges, in fact, you don't even know who the 144,000 are. Does not prove what you claim.

This is just a taste of some verses that can be reasoned on. Other faiths may choose to believe in other things, yet they cannot get away from the fact that there is a figure of 144,000 in the Bible. It has always been there, so it must be for a reason.

There is no reason in any of what you've claimed those verses say. Take another look at the Bible- something other than the dogmatic translation your elders give you.

 

[ChaChynga]

No and they are not Christians, but in self naming only, like the Mormons and the Catholics they have an outward sign looking to man to be Good, but not to God.

 

[analogmusicman]

even right after I started learning Greek, I could easily tell that the JW's "New World Translation" was as bogus as a three dollar bill. whoever translated it (it wasn't their founder Russell,he didn't know ANY Greek although he CLAIMED to have done the translation) twisted verses to fit the JW agenda.

tnx,

 

[Krelian]

On the other hand, there is a lot in the Jehovah's Witness church to be commended.

One:

Whether or not their translation of the Bible is "bogus" or not makes very little difference when the fact remains that they read their Bibles much more regularly than most "orthodox" Christians I know.

Two:

They have standardized requirements for mandatory evangelism.
That is to say, there is a mandatory amount of time that each family must have spent in spreading the Gospel.

Three:

They accept even the Sermon on the Mount as a liveable policy.
Unlike many people who claim to believe the whole Bible and to let the whole Bible speak for itself in their lives, the Witnesses actually accept every word Jesus spoke.
Even Jesus' blasphemey (blasphemy to modern culture) of pacifism is accepted by them without rationalization of any kind.

Now, my opinion is this.
The Jehovah's Witnesses are not a cult or anything near it.
People like to say all sorts of evil things about them, but when it comes down to it, all they are guilty of is being confused in a few small areas.

They definitely do not see Jesus as "impotent to save."
Allow me to quote from their booklet 'What the Bible Really Teaches':
"Since a perfect human life was lost [in the Fall], no imperfect human life could ever buy it back. Wat was needed was a ransom equal in value to what was lost...How did Jehovah provide the ransom? He sent one of his perfect spirit sons to the earth. But jehovah did not send just any spirit creature. He sent the one most precious to him, his only-begotten Son."

Oh my, the heresy!
Now, I'm not saying that the Jehovah's Witnesses are the same as any other Christian, only that most of the stuff I've been reading in reply to this post just seems made up.
Still, maybe it sits well with some Grace-binding people to set up divisions on Earth because of differences in eschatology, but instead, they should be seeing in the Witnesses brethren who are confused on a few peculiar details and trying to show, in humility, how they are mistaken.

(Also, on one final note about the New World Translation.
Every modern translation has an agenda in mind, thank you.
If the JWs are guilty of creating a biased Bible, then I implore all who say so to look through the mirror of Matthew 7:1.)