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Do Dolphins go to Heaven?

Wedjat

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I want to talk sentience. Specifically, what makes a creature sentient? Both from a biblical and evolutionary point of view.
From an evolutionary view, I think it can be defined rather simply as an organism reaching a state of self awareness, which can be tested easily. The degree that other things related to sentience (although not sentience by definition) materialize themselves in astonishing ways in non-human creatures. It makes you wonder. Perhaps humans are a bit too self centered when it comes to thinking that we have a general monopoly on sentience.
The thing that got me thinking about it was this article on dolphins.
Side topic for Christians. In your opinion, do dolphins have souls? If so, will we see them in Heaven (or Hell)? If not, what necessitates that humans have one? What does the soul do if not imbue sentience, self-awareness, and emotion?
 

AV1611VET

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Side topic for Christians. In your opinion, do dolphins have souls?
No.
If not, what necessitates that humans have one? What does the soul do if not imbue sentience, self-awareness, and emotion?
The textbook answer is as follows:

Man is a tripartite being --- made up of three parts:

  1. body = soma = gives us world-consciousness through the empirical senses
  2. soul = psyche = gives us self-consciousness through the mind, the will, and the emotions
  3. spirit = pneuma = gives us God-consciousness through His Word and His creation
 
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Jazmyn

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"Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?'" (Ecclesiastes 3:21)

It's sort of ambiguous,

There are some words used in relation to animals that can mean 'soul',

ne·fesh = a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion
Various translations concerning animals translate it as 'has life' or 'the breath of life in it' or 'in which is a living soul' or 'in which is a living spirit'.

They are described as living, translated:
chai·yah = alive, living

They are described as having a spirit
ru·ach = breath, wind, spirit

The spirit is what makes one's body alive,
"As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." (James 2:26)

"How many are your works, O Lord!
In wisdom you made them all;
the earth is full of your creatures.
There is the sea, vast and spacious,
teeming with creatures beyond number—
living things both large and small.
There the ships go to and fro,
and the leviathan, which you formed to frolic there.

These all look to you
to give them their food at the proper time.
When you give it to them,
they gather it up;
when you open your hand,
they are satisfied with good things.
When you hide your face,
they are terrified;
when you take away their breath,
they die and return to the dust.
When you send your Spirit,
they are created,
and you renew the face of the earth." (Psalm 104:24-30)

But who knows if it's their body that returns to dust, and their spirit returns to God.

"In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind." (Job 12:10 KJV)

There's are horses in heaven,
"I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean." (Revelation 19:11-14)

"This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant." (Colossians 1:23)
"He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation." (Mark 16:15)
That's why St.Francis famously preached to sparrows.

"For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time." (Romans 8:20-22)
"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away,..."(Revelation 21:1)
Surely this includes animals?

"that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father." (Philippians 2:10-11)
"Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!'" (Revelation 5:13)
"My mouth will speak in praise of the LORD. Let every creature praise his holy name for ever and ever." (Psalm 145:21)
How could they do that unless they're included in heaven and the new earth?

Psalm 104 gives animals sentience. On animal sentience in science, elephants have been found to comtemplate themselves in mirrors, Elephant Self-Awareness Mirrors Humans | LiveScience
 
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Wedjat

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No.The textbook answer is as follows:

Man is a tripartite being --- made up of three parts:

  1. body = soma = gives us world-consciousness through the empirical senses
  2. soul = psyche = gives us self-consciousness through the mind, the will, and the emotions
  3. spirit = pneuma = gives us God-consciousness through His Word and His creation

I defy you to read the article I posted and tell me that dolphins do not fufill your own criteria for a soul.

As for the spirit, I do not fulfill that criteria. Clearly I am not completely human.
 
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laconicstudent

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The ultimate fate of animals is left ambiguous. It is rather presumptuous to draw conclusions and present it authoritatively, I think, in this matter. God doesn't tell us because it is completely irrelevant to the human situation. We'll find out eventually.
 
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The ultimate fate of animals is left ambiguous. It is rather presumptuous to draw conclusions and present it authoritatively, I think, in this matter. God doesn't tell us because it is completely irrelevant to the human situation. We'll find out eventually.

Isn't interesting that the things Yahweh never mentioned in the Bible (e.g., dolphins, DNA, electrons, etc.) always happen to be the same things the Bronze Age authors of the Bible could not have known about?
 
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LifeToTheFullest!

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No.The textbook answer is as follows:

Man is a tripartite being --- made up of three parts:

  1. body = soma = gives us world-consciousness through the empirical senses
  2. soul = psyche = gives us self-consciousness through the mind, the will, and the emotions
  3. spirit = pneuma = gives us God-consciousness through His Word and His creation
What textbook is that AV? I submit to you that this is your "infallable interpretation," is it not?
 
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Split Rock

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I defy you to read the article I posted and tell me that dolphins do not fufill your own criteria for a soul.

As for the spirit, I do not fulfill that criteria. Clearly I am not completely human.

Clearly Dolphins do not have a soul, since Man (who has a soul) was given dominion over all the dirty, souless animals mentioned in Genesis (including whales). If dolphins had souls, we could also be related to them, which we know cannot be true since Adam was made from dirt. Therefore, we have another two Biblical reason to claim that dolphins do not have souls. :amen:
 
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laconicstudent

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Isn't interesting that the things Yahweh never mentioned in the Bible (e.g., dolphins, DNA, electrons, etc.) always happen to be the same things the Bronze Age authors of the Bible could not have known about?


Duh, that's because God was speaking to Bronze Age primitives on morality and spirituality. What possible reason could He have for dumping naturalistic knowledge on them? It would have been totally irrelevant His goals. ^_^
 
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catzrfluffy

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Isn't interesting that the things Yahweh never mentioned in the Bible (e.g., dolphins, DNA, electrons, etc.) always happen to be the same things the Bronze Age authors of the Bible could not have known about?
Dolphins:
"'Of all the creatures living in the water of the seas and the streams, you may eat any that have fins and scales. But all creatures in the seas or streams that do not have fins and scales--whether among all the swarming things or among all the other living creatures in the water--you are to detest." (Leviticus 11:9-10)

DNA:
"because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor." (Hebrews 7:10)

"From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth;" (Acts 17:26)

"Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good." (Genesis 1:11,12)

"So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good." (Genesis 1:21)​

"And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good." (Genesis 1:25)

Electrons:
"By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible." (Hebrews 11:3)

"And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness." (Genesis 1:3-4)

"Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;" (Job 38:25)

(Lightning sends out leaders, then travels along this path.)


Other things in the Bible not discovered till later:

Ocean Currents:
"...whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas." (Psalm 8:8)
Discovered by Matthew Maury, who sought out what it referred to.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Fontaine_Maury

Wind Circulation:
"The wind goes toward the south,
And turns around to the north;
The wind whirls about continually,
And comes again on its circuit." (Ecclesiastes 1:6)
global2.jpg


That Air Has a Weight:
"To establish a weight for the wind,
And apportion the waters by measure." (Job 28:25)

The fact that air has weight was proven scientifically only about 300 years ago. The relative weights of air and water are needed for the efficient functioning of the world’s hydrologic cycle, which in turn sustains life on the earth

Evaporation and the Water Cycle:
"He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth;
He makes lightning for the rain;
He brings the wind out of His treasuries." (Psalm 135:7)

"When He utters His voice,
There is a multitude of waters in the heavens:
'And He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth.
He makes lightning for the rain,
He brings the wind out of His treasuries.'" (Jeremiah 10:13)

"For He draws up drops of water,
Which distill as rain from the mist,
Which the clouds drop down
And pour abundantly on man.
Indeed, can anyone understand the spreading of clouds,
The thunder from His canopy?" (Job 36:27-29)

"All the rivers run into the sea,
Yet the sea is not full;
To the place from which the rivers come,
There they return again." (Ecclesiastes 1:7)

The Sphericity of the Earth:
"It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in." (Isaiah 40:22)

Nuclear Processes:
"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up." (2 Peter 3:10)
 
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G

GoSeminoles!

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Duh, that's because God was speaking to Bronze Age primitives on morality and spirituality. What possible reason could He have for dumping naturalistic knowledge on them? It would have been totally irrelevant His goals. ^_^

Sure, but it's also interesting that much of the so-called morality Yahweh handed down back then is frankly immoral by today's standards. The OT condones slavery, the killing disobedient children, witches, and gays. Anyone doing those things today would be jailed thankfully.

Any set of moral edicts given to us by a allegedly morally perfect being should itself be perfect. Yet, clearly by most standards modern morality is far superior to what Yahweh handed down. This suggests to me that the morality content of the OT was also created by Bronze Age people, not a god.
 
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Split Rock

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The Sphericity of the Earth:[/SIZE]
"It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in." (Isaiah 40:22)

Nuclear Processes:
"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up." (2 Peter 3:10)

Its very easy to read into scripture what was never intended. Especailly when you snip out lines of scripture from their context.

1. A circle is 2-dimensional; it is not a sphere. The Hebrews had a word for "ball," which could have been used here.

2. The "elements" here are NOT what we call elements today.
 
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pgp_protector

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Well according to Revelation
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Their won't be any sea around for them. So if there are any, they'll have to be kept in pools, no swimming out in the sea.
 
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AV1611VET

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Wedjat

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That's what we would call "sound doctrine."
Seriously, don't start this up again.

LightSeaker-
Do you think animals (like dolphins) are subject to going to hell as well?
Dolphins kill for sport, sometimes even their own young. Chimps will occasionally pull a baby (chimp or human, documented incidents in both cases) from it's mothers arms and devour it. They (dolphins especially) are smart enough to "know better" it's clearly more of a cultural thing, but sin doesn't know culture does it?

But what about animals who clearly aren't sentient. Crabs practice cannibalism, there are jellyfish that kill people, not out of malice, but just as a reaction. Is that considered a "sin"?

Where is the line drawn?
 
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