Do Disbelievers Go Too Hell?

mike1reynolds · May 4, 2006

Since MLKs message has been watered down and neutralized almost as much as Jesus, I should provide some context here. MLK didnt just preach against bigotry, he was a disciple of Gandhi. Gandhi invented the path of non-violent action. In Hindi it is called Ahimsa peaceful action. That his how he was able to free India from British rule. MLK went to India and became a disciple of Gandhis, studying at one of his ashrams. It is only by embracing the parallel truths of other religions that MLK was able to preach the gospel in the manner that he did.

Melethiel · May 4, 2006

Did you ask anyone the specific question: Is belief that all non-Christians go too Hell a form of religious bigotry?

It doesn’t sound like it. It sounds like you gave them reams of paper and asked them a question that has nothing to do with the assertion.

Even in the face of opposing evidence, you deny it...I instant messaged them this thread, along with the direct question. The answer was contrary to your assertions.

Then why do have such a strong conviction that calling this bigotry is preaching a false gospel?

I think that you have a misunderstanding about what is being debated here. You have bought into Lynns misrepresentation of my argument so much so that you don’t really have any idea of what it is that I am actually saying.

Convictions mean nothing.
I understand perfectly well what you are arguing, and I reject it. I have been reading YOUR posts, not Lynn's.

There is strong correlation, this is incontrovertible. Whether or not it is a cause and effect relationship is irrelevant to this incontrovertible fact (although the argument that there is no cause and effect relationship is pretty weak).

You have provided no evidence that there is a strong correlation. You have given two unrelated facts and attempted to link them. Now, if you provided statistics saying that all those in Europe who attend church have a lower IQ than those who do not, you might have an argument. However, that is simply not true.

There is no proof of anything outside of mathematics, but the evidence is quite strong. It is a unanimous trend in all industrial nations except former Soviet countries. You can’t go below zero, so that fact that it isn’t going down there is not evidence of very much.

If you study history, you will find that things like religious attendance go in periodic cycles. There have been many periods of seeming apostacy followed by revival.

Melethiel · May 4, 2006

mike1reynolds said:
Since MLKs message has been watered down and neutralized almost as much as Jesus, I should provide some context here. MLK didnt just preach against bigotry, he was a disciple of Gandhi. Gandhi invented the path of non-violent action. In Hindi it is called Ahimsa peaceful action. That his how he was able to free India from British rule. MLK went to India and became a disciple of Gandhis, studying at one of his ashrams. It is only by embracing the parallel truths of other religions that MLK was able to preach the gospel in the manner that he did.

PPR.

Lynn73 · May 4, 2006

mike1reynolds said:
If they are overwhelmed with false bigoted distortions of Jesus' teachings then they have not rejected Christ, they have rejected a false gospel.

The definition of bigotry in the dictionary is: being intolerantly convinced of one’s opinion.

Your distortion of the gospel fits the definition precisely. Islam is also a bigoted religion. This is the reason why these are the two most violent religions in the world. That is one of the many factors that turn people off from a false hateful gospel. The True gospel is one of compassion and mercy which you vehemently reject.

You prove once again, friend, that you don't listen. There's only one truth and what you're espousing isn't it. The true gospel is BECAUSE of God's compassion and mercy but the fact is still that there is only one way for everyone and that is faith in Christ. Those outside of Christ are lost. If you don't like that, take it up with God because He's the one who says so. Your view of Christianity and the gospel of Christ is distorted perhaps due to your studying of all these different false religions. Studying what they believe is fine, as long as their error and falsehood is recognized. As I said, there aren't many truths, you can't go smorgasboarding in different religions, including Christianity, and just pick out what you like and make up a religion from that. Not if you want to remain in the truth. If you want the whole truth, again, read the Scriptures, and forget Ghandi and all these other religions. They're false.

Lynn73 · May 4, 2006

mike1reynolds said:
Lynn, BarbB, and Melethiel, do you think that Martin Luther King was preaching a false gospel?

I don't know that much about him but what little I know makes me think that preaching the gospel of Christ wasn't what he was all about. He seemed to be more about reform and working to see blacks treated equally with everyone else. This is commendable, but it isn't the gospel.

mike1reynolds · May 4, 2006

How do I admit multiple truths? I accept only one truth. Your is not an equally valid interpretation, it is false. Jesus was not a bigot.

mike1reynolds · May 4, 2006

MLK was a preacher who talked extensively about Jesus and used Biblical passages to justify his actions. According to you his whole approach was contrary to the Bible. He adopted it from another religion.

mike1reynolds · May 4, 2006

All true religions teach exactly the same precepts. Just because other religions are older and so could not have made reference to Jesus in their scriptures doesnt make their lack of scriptural reference to Jesus a source of invalidation. All Hindus, for example, embrace Jesus as a messiah. Their term for messiah is avatar and they all believe that Jesus was the last avatar. They avidly study the life of Jesus and are intimately familiar with Him. For example, when The Passion of Christ came out, it was a huge block buster in India. People lined up around the block waiting for hours to get in to see it, like you would only see for a rock concert in this country. They arguably love Jesus much more than most Americans.

Debi1967 · May 4, 2006

Lynn73 said:
Mike, as someone else suggested, I also suggest you carefully and slowly reread the New Testament. You are, indeed, preachng a false gospel here and it very well may be YOU that is going to have to answer for it and for all those you may lead astray by it. I'd be very careful about changing the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ if I were you. I concur with Melethiel, you are calling the true gospel and the God of that gospel to be full of bigotry.

And it doesn't matter how "selflessly loving" atheists are. On the authority of Scripture, they will still go to hell if they continue rejecting Christ, God's only provision for anyone's salvation.

Wow this is twice in one day that I am agreeing with Lynn what is happening here ??????

Sorry Mike, I usually like what you have to say but in this instance and in this thread you are preaching UNIVERSALISM and that is not spoken of in the Bible ...

mike1reynolds · May 4, 2006

You are Catholic, right? What do you think of the works of Father Thomas Merton?

The Bible teaches that the pagan gods where in fact demons. But if you assume that this applies to monotheistic religions I think it is an overgeneralization. Islam is a different story, but other monotheistic religions do not share the characteristics of paganism.

In Biblical times they had no contact with any other monotheistic religion, so their lack of reference to them doesn't preclude them.

Melethiel · May 4, 2006

mike1reynolds said:
How do I admit multiple truths? I accept only one truth. Your is not an equally valid interpretation, it is false. Jesus was not a bigot.

Of course Jesus was not a bigot. Neither are we. In case you haven't noticed, you are the only one calling the Gospel bigotry here, and I've even said that my atheist friends disagree with you.

Also, I asked for proof about MLK being a disciple of Ghandi, as that's a new one to me.

mike1reynolds · May 4, 2006

Melethiel, how am I saying that the Gospels preach bigotry? Quite to the contrary, I vehemently reject this. However, asserting that all non-Christians go too Hell is religious bigotry. You have to take certain passages out of context and focus exclusively on others to hold this view. That is not Jesus gospel, that is taking bits and pieces as you choose and ignoring Jesus whole message.

I asked you, did you specifically say, Do you think that the belief that all non-Christians go too Hell is not a form of religious bigotry?

Obviously when you asked the atheists you did not ask this question.

Ill provide references on Gandhi and MLK shortly. You are quite young. At one time this was common knowledge, at least among civil rights supporters. I had a biography of Gandhi that showed a picture of MLK sitting in lotus position at one of his ashrams.

Debi1967 · May 4, 2006

mike1reynolds said:
You are Catholic, right? What do you think of the works of Father Thomas Merton?

The Bible teaches that the pagan gods where in fact demons. But if you assume that this applies to monotheistic religions I think it is an overgeneralization. Islam is a different story, but other monotheistic religions do not share the characteristics of paganism.

In Biblical times they had no contact with any other monotheistic religion, so their lack of reference to them doesn't preclude them.

Yes I am Catholic and this means what? That I somehow do not believe in what God's inerrant word has to say? That can be farther from the Truth....

Do you mean do I believe in Invincible Ignorance? Yes I do.... but even the Church has stated that such cases are very rare .....

Do You mean do I believe that we will be jduged according to the knowledge we do know? Yes I believe this too, and the more knowledge we have the more accountable we shall be.

Do you mean that I should pronounce and claim something that has been declared a heresy by the Church? NO, sir I will not, and Universalism has been declared a heresy. It is inconsistent with Biblical and Traditional Teaching and has been since the beginning of the Church.....

It is not consistent with Christ's Teachings....

We are warned against pronouncing Judgement over anyone else's Salvation but at the same time we are also warned that the road to Salvation is NARROW, not WIDE.... We are told that we have to accept Christ.

The Church recognizes only the fact that for those that have no such knowlege then their Salvation is undetermined and can only be put in the hands of the Lord. For those that have knowledge of Christ and reject Christ then the Bible is clear .... And the Church is clear...

Debi1967 · May 4, 2006

mike1reynolds said:
Melethiel, how am I saying that the Gospels preach bigotry? Quite to the contrary, I vehemently reject this. However, asserting that all non-Christians go too Hell is religious bigotry. You have to take certain passages out of context and focus exclusively on others to hold this view. That is not Jesus gospel, that is taking bits and pieces as you choose and ignoring Jesus whole message.

I asked you, did you specifically say, Do you think that the belief that all non-Christians go too Hell is not a form of religious bigotry?

Obviously when you asked the atheists you did not ask this question.

Ill provide references on Gandhi and MLK shortly. You are quite young. At one time this was common knowledge, at least among civil rights supporters. I had a biography of Gandhi that showed a picture of MLK sitting in lotus position at one of his ashrams.

Do you have a problem seeing Mike? because your posts seem to be getting larger and larger in font all the time, this is in fact another form of screaming or yelling at an individual .... The purpose of debate is to intellectually discuss something, not hammer it into one's head .... please decrease your font size ....

Debi1967 · May 4, 2006

However, asserting that all non-Christians go too Hell is religious bigotry.

NO THIS IS NOT... what it is though is the Justice of God .... you may find that concept hard to accept but this is clearly defined in the bible it does not hold anywhere in the bible that ALL will be saved... It says He died as a ransom for all but it clearly also states that many will reject it too ....

mike1reynolds · May 4, 2006

Just as Dr. King was a disciple of Gandhi and Christ, we must now be Dr. King's disciples. - Cesar E. Chavez, famous civil rights leader
http://www.wccusd.k12.ca.us/stc/Waysofthinking/append/ChavezSpeech1.htm

He [Dalton, a Columbia U. political science professor] has been back numerous times since then and has expanded his areas of research to include other disciples of Gandhi, including Martin Luther King, Jr. as well as some of the lesser-known righteous gentiles of the second world war.
http://ci.columbia.edu/ci/eseminars/1302_detail.html

Her message adds that, "It not only commemorates the life and contributions of one of history's greatest leaders, but also the eternal bond between Gandhi and his foremost American disciple, Martin Luther King, Jr. and the spirit of goodwill between the people of India and the United States."
http://www.indianembassy.org/indusrel/kingpark.htm

For Martin Luther King Jr., the union between Jesus Christ and Mohandas Gandhi was indissoluble.
[]
Black Gandhians like Martin Luther King Jr., Desmond Tutu and, in a unique sense, Nelson Mandela have sometimes reflected Gandhaian soul force more brightly than Gandhians in India.
http://igcs.binghamton.edu/igcs_site/dirton10.html

While at seminary King became acquainted with Mohandas Gandhi's philosophy of nonviolent social protest. On a trip to India in 1959 King met with followers of Gandhi. During these discussions he became more convinced than ever that nonviolent resistance was the most potent weapon available to oppressed people in their struggle for freedom.</SPAN>
http://www.lucidcafe.com/library/96jan/king.html

Martin Luther King began to think that black Americans could use Gandhi's way to win their freedom. Wasn't Gandhi's way also the way of Jesus Christ? Hadn't Christ told his people to "turn the other cheek" if someone struck them?
http://teacher.scholastic.com/researchtools/articlearchives/honormlk/mlklife1.htm

Inspired by the preachings of Dr. A.J. Muste and Dr. Mordecai Johnson on the life and teachings of Mahatma Gandhi, Dr. King was moved to study intensely Gandhi's writings and movement while still a student at Crozer Theological Seminary, September 1948 - June 1951.

Dr. King and Coretta went to India as a guest of Prime Minister Nehru in efforts to study and learn more about Gandhi's philosophy and techniques of nonviolence from February 2 through March 10, 1959.

http://www.liu.edu/cwis/cwp/library/mlking.htm

In February 1959 Dr. and Mrs. King went to India, the homeland of Mahatma Ghandi,. In India Dr. King studied Satyagraha, Gandhi's principle of nonviolent persuasion. Dr. King was determined to use Satyagraha as his main instrument of social protest.

http://www.holidays.net/mlk/story.htm

mike1reynolds · May 4, 2006

debiwebi said:
Yes I am Catholic and this means what? That I somehow do not believe in what God's inerrant word has to say? That can be farther from the Truth....

No, no, settle down girl. I was asking you about Father Thomas Merton’s work. He was a Catholic priest who wrote dozens of books on comparative religion. I was asking because if you aren’t Catholic there wasn’t much point in bringing him up. So are you familiar with him?

mike1reynolds · May 4, 2006

debiwebi said:
NO THIS IS NOT... what it is though is the Justice of God .... you may find that concept hard to accept but this is clearly defined in the bible it does not hold anywhere in the bible that ALL will be saved... It says He died as a ransom for all but it clearly also states that many will reject it too ....

I dont disagree with this for a moment! As I said, I think Islam is a false religion. To be more specific, the entity that dictated the Quran to Mohammed claimed to be the archangel Gabriel. I am convinced that it was a demon. If it had been put on trial the way St. Joans locutions from the archangel Michael were, it would have failed miserably. Muslims are going to go too Hell in droves.

Lynn73 · May 4, 2006

mike1reynolds said:
All true religions teach exactly the same precepts. Just because other religions are older and so could not have made reference to Jesus in their scriptures doesnt make their lack of scriptural reference to Jesus a source of invalidation. All Hindus, for example, embrace Jesus as a messiah. Their term for messiah is avatar and they all believe that Jesus was the last avatar. They avidly study the life of Jesus and are intimately familiar with Him. For example, when The Passion of Christ came out, it was a huge block buster in India. People lined up around the block waiting for hours to get in to see it, like you would only see for a rock concert in this country. They arguably love Jesus much more than most Americans.

If they don't trust Him as Savior, they're still lost. While loving Him and trying to live according to His teachingsa are good and right, they still must have a personal faith in Him as Savior. One can love Him and emulate His teachings and still not recognize who He is or His atoning for sin. Without trusting Him as Savior, they aren't saved. Universalism is a life of the devil and isn't taught in Scripture.

Splayd · May 4, 2006

Mike - If the "truth", from your perspective, is found in other religions, but christianity is full of bigotry and lies, why didn't you pick one of the other religions?
Are your views consistent with the Methodist icon you choose to represent yourself with?

Do Disbelievers Go Too Hell?

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