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Do Creationists Believe in Talking Snakes?

Job 33:6

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It's just like, if you have a line and people are waiting to enter a supermarket during covid. One person enters the store at 8AM, But just because they enter the store at 8AM doesn't mean that they are not present at 9:00AM or 10:00AM.

Then the next person enters at 9AM, the next enters at 10AM etc.

The diagram It's describing when things enter time, and it's using the line extending above to depict a continued presence to modern times.

And in the chart, the different colors are representative of rocks, so we have the oldest rocks of the precambrian on the bottom and the youngest rocks of the cenozoic on the top. So the chart is depicting a passage of time, then it's just showing which animals enter time at different times.

So fish show up in the Cambrian and then as we walk through time, amphibians show up in the Devonian, so then fish and amphibians are in the Devonian. Then we continue forward through time until eventually reptiles arrive in the carboniferous. Then we continue walking through time and then eventually mammals show up in the triassic, so mammals, fish, amphibians and reptiles are together in the triassic but there are no birds yet. Then eventually birds show up in the jurassic. Then all parties continue together into the cenozoic which is present day.
 
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Job 33:6

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For reference:
 
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renniks

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So, the average layman looks at the chart and takes it at face value, and believes that it represents reality. But actually, it doesn't because there should be fish beside the birds and the same plants through out the chart. And birds beside dinosaurs.

So the average layman finds a sea shell on a hill far from any ocean, he is taught to believe that that area was under the ocean millions of years ago. But if he was taught a creationist perspective, he believes that it was underwater during the flood.

The popular narrative can be manipulated easily by neat little charts when the real world is much more chaotic, and not so easily interpreted.
 
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Job 33:6

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There are fish besides birds, just not until after the jurassic, as per the chart. And Dinosaurs are reptiles, and reptiles and birds are also found together on the chart, again by the Jurassic when birds first appear.

Fortunately, and I was describing this earlier, laymen do actually have the ability to confirm the above charts.

All you have to do is go on Google and look up a geologic map of the area around you, go on Amazon and buy yourself a $20 rock hammer or you could just go to a local lowes or home depot and get yourself a chisel and a rubber mallet (maybe a 10 lb mallet would do well for starters) for splitting rock, get yourself a pair of composite toe boots and maybe some bug spray or sunscreen for safety. Gloves sometimes help too.

And all you really have to do is go look for yourself to see if these colorful charts are factual.

I do it all the time and in the countless times I've hunted fossils or have collected rocks, these charts have remained true of the hundreds of fossils and rocks I've seen and dug up.
 
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Job 33:6

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Here's a geologic map of Virginia for example. All I did was go on Google and pull it up. And if you use a smartphone, there's also an app called the RockD app, which gives you a digitized version with your location marked, much like google maps.

So then you can just go to Virginia, you pull up your colorful little chart like the ones I know that above, and you dig around and you see what you find.

And it really is that simple.

Most states also have public groups or may have public locations where there's fossil hunting as well. So you can always join up with parties of people and you can bring your diagram and your geologic map and hammer and boots and you can join in with people too. It's quite common and it is very easy for a laymen to investigate the credibility of these charts.

And as a geologist who has looked at countless rocks and fossils of many areas, both by hobby and profession and through research, I'm 100% confident in the truth of these charts.

If some laymen never attempts to investigate for themselves, there isn't much I can do about that. Someone could hypothetically live their whole life in a house with the blinds closed and they could deny that the sun exists too. There isn't really much that I can do about it but tell them that they're wrong and suggest that they should just go look for themselves if they doubt it.

And the same is true for the fossil record. If you doubt it, then go look for yourself. It's not going anywhere. And the great thing about geology and paleontology is that it's everywhere. As long as you're on planet earth, you have the ability to look.
 

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Job 33:6

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This actually reminds me of the book of John where Jesus reappears to the apostles after the resurrection. This is on point with Easter. And the apostle Thomas said, until I stick my hand in the side of Jesus, I will not believe.

Well, when it comes to geology and paleontology, every laymen, every person, assuming you have the ability to walk and you can see and aren't blind, everyone literally can stick their hand into it, to verify whether or not the charts are true.

And if you decide not to stick your hand into it, then perhaps you will never believe. But there isn't much I can do about that other than recommending that if you doubt, then go stick your hand into it.
 
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renniks

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Only this only makes sense if the layers represent time periods, and that only makes sense if they are laid down very gradually. Which common sense says can't work. Anyone can observe when a stream gets dammed up by beavers, forms silt, floods and silts in an area. That's a week or less, not a million year period. So it makes no sense to say the layers represent time.
 
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Ponderous Curmudgeon

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Or you could have a larger stream like the Mississippi that is slowly filling in the Gulf of Mexico creating sediment layers on a larger scale of time and area
Mississippi Delta lobes

Salé-Cypremort 4,600 years BP[11]

Cocodrie 4,600–3,500 years BP[11]

Teche 3,500–2,800 years BP[11]

St. Bernard 2,800–1,000 years BP[11]

Lafourche 1,000–300 years BP[11]

Plaquemine 750–500 years BP[11]

Balize 550 years[11]



From Mississippi River Delta - Wikipedia
 
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renniks

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And where are you getting that it takes that many years? It's not like it's going to be consistently the same amount.
 
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Job 33:6

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Hence why I gave examples above that cannot logically be explained in any short period of time. Such as in the case of the twice turned angular unconformity. I'll quote myself:
 
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Job 33:6

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Do Creationists Believe in Talking Snakes?

What is the Falsification for Abiogenesis and Theory of Evolution?

Above are links to a couple examples of environments that couldn't logically form in any short period of time. One of which I gave here in this thread just a day or two ago.

But even still, the fossil succession has nothing to do with short or deep time, no more does the order of layers in my sandwich have anything to do with how fast or slow I made the sandwich.

An order is an order regardless. And this order, as discussed above, really only makes sense in light of evolution, as the saying goes.
 
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Job 33:6

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The one goes as follows:

What is the Falsification for Abiogenesis and Theory of Evolution?

Also, as mentioned in the discussion we had a few days ago:

What is the Falsification for Abiogenesis and Theory of Evolution?

In the green river formation, there are over 5 million independent varves, deposited by the melting of ice.




Ever wonder how long it might take to lay down 5 million repeating layers? Or how a flood could even do such a thing? No flood produces repeating sequences of layers. It would defy physics because such sequences are not sorted by density, given that less dense layers rest both above and below more dense layers.

And what if I went further to point out that this green river formation contained oval shaped bodies of rock in the shape of what appears to be a prehistoric lakes?



And what if I went further and described how the base of this lake shaped body was anoxic and radiated to an oxidated state as we went outward from the center of the lake shaped body?


And what if I went further and mentioned that only lacustrine animals were found in this formation (never any salt water animals), and what if I went further and what if I mentioned that in some portions of this formation there were hundreds of bird tracks, that had no particular direction, as if birds were aimlessly wandering around in shallow lake water (I wonder what such birds might have been up to if not casually hunting fish and bugs for hours on end?) And how they had time to aimlessly wander around if they were allegedly right in the middle of being buried by a catatrophic flood (the tracks are found between layers after all, so they must have been walking around right in the middle of things).




And what if I went further and mentioned about how these 5 million repeating layers only made up a small fraction, perhaps just 5-10% of an overall much deeper succession of rocks that otherwise also held their own unique qualities and history?



How could it all be if not as a product of an old earth?

So somehow this alleged flood sorts sediment into 5 million+ distinct varves, and somehow right in the middle of this flood there are birds casually wandering around in a body of deposits the shape of a lake. And birds, when they are fleeing something, they tend to fly. They don't aimelessly walk in circles. And somehow this flood also produced anoxic conditions right at the bottom of this lake-shaped deposit.

And somehow fossil fish are limited to the extent of the space that is lake shaped?

To make matters worse, we also have plenty of feeding and resting traces throughout the fossil record as well. Feeding traces of birds, fish, mammals etc.

FEEDING TRACES ASSOCIATED WITH BIRD TRACKS FROM THE LOWER CRETACEOUS HAMAN FORMATION, REPUBLIC OF KOREA on JSTOR

So right in the middle of this crazy flood where mountains were being shoved into the atmosphere and thousands a feat of sediment or being deposited, we have these animals aimlessly walking around eating grass off of the ground. Just casually grazing right in the middle of doomsday.
 
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Job 33:6

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And another flaw in the young earth view can be observed in my post here:


What is the Falsification for Abiogenesis and Theory of Evolution?

To help describe the formation, we have ordovician bedding in a horizontal position, with silurian strata in a vertical position, with fault gouge at the base of the silurian and burrow networks above the fault gouge.

So you could imagine the ordovician strata would be laid down horizontally due to gravity.
==========
==========

The ordovician strata was then upturned and eroded away.

llllllllllllll

Silurian strata was deposited stop the ordovician.

========
llllllllllllllllll

Fault gouge forms as a product of the grinding of two solidified massive bodies of rock, suggesting the passage of deep time (as opposed to the whole place being some muddled soft storm deposits). Also keep in mind that metamorphosis occurs under specific temperatures and pressures. Push too hard or fast and you end up with eclogites, granulites or blue schists depending on the formation and temperatures. So in this instance, pressures and temperatures were not particularly significant enough to metamorphose these common sandstone and shale bodies, as that is what these formations consist of, the ordovician being un metamorphosed shale, while the silurian being sandstone which also is an unmetamorphosed rock type or simply a sedimentary rock type which is not metamorphic.



Young earth Creationists will never be able to explain how flood waters could apply such an extraordinary pressure on mountains to shove them into the atmosphere while simultaneously not causing brittle fracturing of any ductile deformed body. Nor how such pressure could exist while still allowing for patterns of regional metamorphosis.

Indeed, they never talk about these things. I wonder why...

Life lived in this particular area and dug networks of burrows within the silurian strata (a further demonstration of the passage of time).
And then beyond all this, the horizontal silurian body turns vertical, while the ordovician body returns to near it's original position.

=====lllllllllllll

What is the young earth explanation for these features? We may never know. Perhaps physics was completely different in the past. Perhaps the rock bodies instantaneously lithified and hardened upon deposition allowing for the formation of fault gouge. Perhaps the burrowing insects were extremophiles immune from incineration that created their burrow networks while trying to flee the carnage of tectonic plates bouncing around like ping pong balls without regard for any physical laws.

And all of this merely consists of the smallest fraction of the geologic column. We have yet to even move on to the other 99% of the column in which young earthers face innumerable issues.
 
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Ponderous Curmudgeon

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And where are you getting that it takes that many years? It's not like it's going to be consistently the same amount.
As an avid outdoorsman, I have no doubt that you have observed the changes to the inlet and outlet and even the gross changes of small water bodies that you visit frequently. Meanders change, the pond fills in and becomes a marsh. The flora changes etc. This happens on your personal scale, the same happens on larger scales as with the changes in river deltas such as the nile. If you don't believe this happens just look at the history of settlement in the Nile river basin in recorded history. These processes do not always continue at a constant rate, but when they don't we can identify this from the changes in the layers laid down from the differences in annual and longer term layers. Spring floods transport larger sediment, summer low levels only transport smaller particles. In rare cases we have lakes that are very stable and we even get regular varves.

That's a starter, from there we can begin to expand our knowledge of how the processes we see today may have given us the features that we see in the deeper layers of the earth.
 
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renniks

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Exactly. And it happens within a very short timeframe. Which is one reason I always consider the earth, or at least the earth in its present form, as fairly young. Massive changes can and do take place quickly.
The grand canyon didn't need millions of years, just a whole lot of water, for example.
And what about "polystrate” fossils... fossils that are standing upright, vertically punching through many ( of the layers in the ground. In other words, a fossilized tree standing upright, right in the middle of the Geologic Column going up through “millions of years” of several layers.
 
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Job 33:6

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And where are you getting that it takes that many years? It's not like it's going to be consistently the same amount.

It really just becomes too much to handle on a 6,000 year old view.

I mean, consider my example above where you have 5 million varves.

let's say there was some kind of a global flood that produced all of these layers within a single year.

of course nobody really knows how a single flood could produce such repeating sequences of layers. Because these layers are not in totality sorted by density, which is how water would sort something like this. So they haven't been sorted purely by water. A giant flood just couldn't account for this.

But even if we decided to forget about physics and consider that maybe a flood could do it, then we would have this weird predicament where we would have something like varves forming at a rate of 5,000,000 varves / 365 days = 13,698 verse per day for 365 straight days.

Well that doesn't make any sense. That's 570 varves per hour. And they're sorted in a repeating sequence, dense, light, dense, light, dense, light etc. 570 times in a single day.

To suggest that a flood did this just doesn't add up.

We could try doing more math on this. Let's say we assume that 5,000,000 varves formed in 5,000 years.

That's 1,000 varves, every year, for 5,000 straight years.

Nobody really knows of any process that would produce such a quantity every single year for 5,000 straight years.

And by the time you incorporate all the other fine details such as having animal tracks and feeding traces between layers, suggesting that they weren't rapidly laid down, but rather were roaming around and casually grazing, and by the time you consider the lacustrine shape and features related to oxidative conditions, and consider that this formation only makes up the very most surfacial layer and doesn't account for the other 99% of the rest of earth history,

We get to a point where we struggle to really explain even the smallest bit of Earth history through a young Earth view, let alone all of earth history.

We cannot logically explain even a sliver of the geologic column through a young earth view, let alone the whole thing.

The theory of plate tectonics on the other hand does a phenomenal job at explaining what we see and is verified through countless lines of evidence and predictions. And plate tectonics are supported by general physics and chemistry as well.


Or here's another striaght forward one:

Giant burrows dug by mega sloths:







These massive tunnels were dug by mega sloths, preserved in the rock record. How fast could these layers truly have been deposited if there were animals digging through them?

And we find animal boroughs all throughout the geological column. Burrows that take time to dig.

Beats that take time to build.

Animal feeding traces and trackways, suggesting that prehistoric animals walked around and grazed.

How would dinosaurs walk around grazing if the ground they grazed on was in mid-deposition?

Dinosaurs are found roughly mid way through post Cambrian strata, which means they hypothetically would have been grazing literally right in the middle of this alleged global flood. The same flood claimed to push mountains into the atmosphere. And here, delicate nests with eggs reside.

Not horizontally, but rather vertically, right in the middle of these layers.
 
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Job 33:6

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Not simply buried on the bottom, but rather evidence of casual life, vertically up through the middle of these layers.
 
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renniks

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As I already stated, I'm not a geologist.
If you want to argue with AIG about it here are some quotes:

  • They have no experimental or observational evidence that the layers formed one at a time over millions of years.

  • The very smoothness of the varves speaks against their having been laid down annually—they show that there was no time for the slightest erosion or biological perturbation before the next varve was laid down.

  • There are fossils penetrating many layers. This means that many varves must have formed before the organism had a chance to rot. Operational science shows that fish break down in days even when protected from oxygen and scavengers. And alkali would hardly preserve them; rather, they help break down organic polymers—why else are alkalis used in dishwasher powders?
“Green River Blues” Raises Red Flag . . .

I suspect circular reasoning on your part...
 
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