Do angels feel more helpless in the face of ignorance than we do?

[mike1reynolds]

An angel’s consciousness is infinite and eternal, it is not bound by time, but they exist in a limited fraction of the universe’s quantum time streams, so their understanding is infinitely small compared to God’s, even though it is infinitely large compared to ours. Though they are infinitely more intelligent than we are and can never fall from grace while we have finite minds and seem doomed to them, we live life with a certitude that they wish they could have. They view ignorance as both a blessing and a curse: ignorance is our downfall yet our ignorance in certitude is also our faith and bliss. Angels feel a much greater need to know all the answers in their faith. Its not that they doubt God, but they feel a much greater need to understand it all and fret more over the discrepancy between God’s promise of what will be and what they see as probable or even possible. They personalize and internalize these discrepancies, they see it as entirely their responsibility to turn things around and bring about God’s promise, so they feel it is up to them to do it, with the help of God’s Understand. They don’t understand how it can be done themselves and in their own infinitely greater understanding feel infinitely more lost without God’s advice than we do, but God doesn’t give them advice on everything they would like advice on. If they had their way they would just be robots who never made a single action of their own accord, but God won’t allow that, He insists that they have free will too. To the angels free will is a scary thing that they desperately wish they could give over completely to God’s Understanding. So even though the angels are infinitely wiser than us, they feel more helpless in the face of ignorance than any human.

I’ve had these thoughts because of thinking about the duality of understanding & action in the upper two thirds of the Trinity. The Holy Father is God’s understanding and the Holy Spirit is God’s actions.

 

[Wisdom's Child]

After reading your OP, all that I can say is this.
Who am I that Christ would die for me?

 

[mike1reynolds]

Angels are keenly aware that the infinity of things they know to be true is a lesser infinity than the infinity of true things they don’t know. To us infinite uncertainty is no big deal, that is just life, but to angels of Light it is a constant source of angelic consternation and to demons it is a source of terror. Demons are really terrified about their uncertainty. They see the myriad of possibilities that our many choices can create. They all exist simultaneously until we make all the choices. Our actions are constantly affecting the probability distribution of the present future. Each quantum interaction pulls away another time stream that isn’t part of the mix anymore. Each choice we make changes the balance of probabilities, thus changing the present future. When we get to the future it will be one of those probabilities. The angels of Light can see every possibility, but evil always destroys itself when it achieves victory, so demons are vast but finite. They can’t see all possibilities. This really terrifies them because they know that no matter how hard they look God can pull a rabbit out of the hat and a dark horse probability that they overlooked will come from nowhere to win the race. So demons are much more terrified of uncertainty than even the most evil human beings.

 

[plum]

An angel’s consciousness is infinite and eternal, it is not bound by time, but they exist in a limited fraction of the universe’s quantum time streams, so their understanding is infinitely small compared to God’s, even though it is infinitely large compared to ours. Though they are infinitely more intelligent than we are and can never fall from grace while we have finite minds and seem doomed to them, we live life with a certitude that they wish they could have. They view ignorance as both a blessing and a curse: ignorance is our downfall yet our ignorance in certitude is also our faith and bliss. Angels feel a much greater need to know all the answers in their faith. Its not that they doubt God, but they feel a much greater need to understand it all and fret more over the discrepancy between God’s promise of what will be and what they see as probable or even possible. They personalize and internalize these discrepancies, they see it as entirely their responsibility to turn things around and bring about God’s promise, so they feel it is up to them to do it, with the help of God’s Understand. They don’t understand how it can be done themselves and in their own infinitely greater understanding feel infinitely more lost without God’s advice than we do, but God doesn’t give them advice on everything they would like advice on. If they had their way they would just be robots who never made a single action of their own accord, but God won’t allow that, He insists that they have free will too. To the angels free will is a scary thing that they desperately wish they could give over completely to God’s Understanding. So even though the angels are infinitely wiser than us, they feel more helpless in the face of ignorance than any human.

I’ve had these thoughts because of thinking about the duality of understanding & action in the upper two thirds of the Trinity. The Holy Father is God’s understanding and the Holy Spirit is God’s actions.

i'm left wondering where you got this information from.

how in the world do you know..?

 

[mike1reynolds]

The Trinity is like a symbolic formal language in mathematics. I have just been combining the Trinitarian symbols in various ways and trying to come up with an extrapolation for what that sequence of symbols means. There is a trinity of grace, understanding and action to the Trinity that forms a Star of David:

[FONT=Fixedsys][B]                  GRACE[/B][/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys][B]                  /   \[/B][/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys][B]  HOLY FATHER----/-----\----HOLY SPIRIT [/B][/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys][B]             \  /       \  /[/B][/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys][B]              \/         \/[/B][/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys][B]              /\   LOVE  /\[/B][/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys][B]             /  \       /  \[/B][/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys][B]UNDERSTANDING----\-----/----ACTION[/B][/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys][B]                  \   /  [/B][/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys][B]                   SON[/B][/FONT]

Sin is the opposite of grace in this graphing, so man is born in sin and grace is the most mysterious of all things to fallen man. It is easy to show that the Father is opposite to action and doesn’t act as well. But the opposition between understanding and the Holy Spirit is the most mysterious. So I was attempting to account for this.

 

[mike1reynolds]

I just figure out another take on the symmetry that is more in line with standard Christian thinking. The works & virtues triangle of grace, understanding and action can also be placed directly on the Trinity, with the Father as grace, the Holy Spirit as understanding, and the Son as action. This is a much more classic Christian description of the Holy Trinity. The Star of David configuration is more esoteric, it applies to deeper mysteries than the more obvious direct superimposition of the works & virtues triangle over the Trinity directly. This puts all grace coming from the Father, all understanding coming from the Holy Spirit and all action coming from the Son.

 

[mike1reynolds]

What I have discovered is that theology, mathematics and physics form a sort of trinity that, when combined, make it much easier to understand God, theology, and creation. Some of my ideas are half-cocked because I just discovered this, so I’m trying to work through the bumps and explore this new understanding by making statements that are drawn from conclusions based on all three scientific disciplines. I’m hoping for good objections or missing truths that would help to refine the understanding that is dawning in my mind.

 

[holo]

An angel’s consciousness is infinite and eternal, it is not bound by time, but they exist in a limited fraction of the universe’s quantum time streams, so their understanding is infinitely small compared to God’s, even though it is infinitely large compared to ours. Though they are infinitely more intelligent than we are and can never fall from grace while we have finite minds and seem doomed to them, we live life with a certitude that they wish they could have. They view ignorance as both a blessing and a curse: ignorance is our downfall yet our ignorance in certitude is also our faith and bliss. Angels feel a much greater need to know all the answers in their faith. Its not that they doubt God, but they feel a much greater need to understand it all and fret more over the discrepancy between God’s promise of what will be and what they see as probable or even possible. They personalize and internalize these discrepancies, they see it as entirely their responsibility to turn things around and bring about God’s promise, so they feel it is up to them to do it, with the help of God’s Understand. They don’t understand how it can be done themselves and in their own infinitely greater understanding feel infinitely more lost without God’s advice than we do, but God doesn’t give them advice on everything they would like advice on. If they had their way they would just be robots who never made a single action of their own accord, but God won’t allow that, He insists that they have free will too. To the angels free will is a scary thing that they desperately wish they could give over completely to God’s Understanding. So even though the angels are infinitely wiser than us, they feel more helpless in the face of ignorance than any human.

I’ve had these thoughts because of thinking about the duality of understanding & action in the upper two thirds of the Trinity. The Holy Father is God’s understanding and the Holy Spirit is God’s actions.

How/where did you learn so much about the nature of angels?

 

[Wisdom's Child]

I can suggest some excellent reading/research material on this subject.
Both these sources are public domain and very detailed in nature.

Ante-Nicene Fathers
Irenaeus "Against Heresies"
and
Hyppolytus "The Refutation of All Heresies".

Please understand that I am not making any accusation of Heresy, Only that there are a number of heretical groups that based much of their doctrines and theologies on the study of mathematics, polyhederals, astrophysics, etc...

Both of these writers do an excellent job of detailing those systems and pointing out where the errors arise. If you are wishing to search this "discovery" of your in depth then this will be a good place to begin. Many of the "pitfalls" you may come across have already been mapped out.

Focus mainly on the systems of the Pythagoreans, the Valentinians, the Marcosians, and the Carpocrates.

I hope you find this helpful.



.

 

[mike1reynolds]

Please understand that I am not making any accusation of Heresy, Only that there are a number of heretical groups that based much of their doctrines and theologies on the study of mathematics, polyhederals, astrophysics, etc...

Sounds like you are talking about Kepler with the reference to polyhedra. What on Earth is heretical about Kepler? What is so heretical about Pythagoras for that matter, he was pre-Christian, not anti-Christian. Atheists like Carl Sagan really disliked Pythagoras too, which leads me to suspect you are barking up the wrong tree with Pythagoras. Are you a creationist? This sounds like a generalized antipathy towards science to me.

 

[Wisdom's Child]

Sounds like you are talking about Kepler with the reference to polyhedra. What on Earth is heretical about Kepler? What is so heretical about Pythagoras for that matter, he was pre-Christian, not anti-Christian. Atheists like Carl Sagan really disliked Pythagoras too, which leads me to suspect you are barking up the wrong tree with Pythagoras. Are you a creationist? This sounds like a generalized antipathy towards science to me.

No, there were groups which in the 2nd century adapted Pythagorian formulas in an effort to describe God in many ways.
Especially shapes involving 3, 7, and 12 sides and /or angles.

Describing The Trinity as a triangle with all sides and angles equal, as evidence that The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are equal in all ways is and example of this type of system.

There is nothing wrong with Pythagorian theory as it applies to mathematics, but, as these references will point out in detail, attempting to apply those theories to Christian Theology can lead to many wrong conclusions.

Furthermore, yes I am a creationist, in the sense of Intelligent Design, but not necessarily the classic "seven day" variety.
I see the fossil record as being a progression of various experimental steps which leads up to the creation of man.

The cosmological "big bang" in my understanding would be the epiphany of God, In the Beginning....
From that point outward random chaos progressed into the set order we see today.

And I see theology as still being "The Queen of Sciences".
The problem comes when science is persued clearly for the sake of disproving God, which is wrong only because it is a pre-concieved notion. Something that science should never be subjected too.

In fact, I like much about quantum mechanics and string theory, both look very promising as means to explain how creation was accomplished.

 

[mike1reynolds]

No, there were groups which in the 2nd century adapted Pythagorian formulas in an effort to describe God in many ways.

Especially shapes involving 3, 7, and 12 sides and /or angles.

Pythagoras did that sort of thing too. So do the Bible code people which I think is bunk, but no one accuses them of being heretical. The Greeks also divided God up into four elements that were considered elemental to consciousness as well as matter.

Describing The Trinity as a triangle with all sides and angles equal, as evidence that The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are equal in all ways is and example of this type of system.

There is a clear priority to the Trinity. The Father is non-dualistic. Unity always comes first.

There is nothing wrong with Pythagorian theory as it applies to mathematics, but, as these references will point out in detail, attempting to apply those theories to Christian Theology can lead to many wrong conclusions.

The symmetries I’m talking about exist in Christianity whether you acknowledge them or not. I’m not making anything up, these patterns were always there and I seriously doubt that the Apostles didn’t know a WHOLE lot more about this than we have known from the 4th century to the present. They HAD to know more, no one today can do what they did on a daily basis.

Furthermore, yes I am a creationist, in the sense of Intelligent Design, but not necessarily the classic "seven day" variety.

I see the fossil record as being a progression of various experimental steps which leads up to the creation of man.

The cosmological "big bang" in my understanding would be the epiphany of God, In the Beginning....
From that point outward random chaos progressed into the set order we see today.

And I see theology as still being "The Queen of Sciences".
The problem comes when science is persued clearly for the sake of disproving God, which is wrong only because it is a pre-concieved notion. Something that science should never be subjected too.

In fact, I like much about quantum mechanics and string theory, both look very promising as means to explain how creation was accomplished.

That sounds like theistic evolution, not creationism. Have you looked at my thread on Goedel’s Theorem?

 

[mike1reynolds]

In Chinese medicine and theology there are five elements. I was trying to study Chinese medicine on my own because of my health problems, and when it made sense to me all at once I was also suddenly able to cook for the first time in my life. They make no distinction between food and medicine, and the medicinal properties are closely linked with the five tastes. Science has recognized that there are five primary categories of taste buds on the tongue. Five-fold symmetries are prevalent in biological forms: we have five appendages and fingers, and many plants have five-fold symmetry.

N-fold symmetries of every kind exist in both thought and form, and they all come from God. They are all a reflection of the fact that the universe is perfectly deterministic and ordered. God is the order that dispels chaos. If this order could not be found, reflected holographically at all levels of reality, then there would be no order and no God. So I take great comfort in the fact that God’s order permeates the universe.

 

[Flames]

we have five appendages

I have six.


Anyways, You start with a bad premise with Angels. 1st, they are able to fall from grace. 2nd I would speculate that they may not be as intelligent as you slate them to be. We aren't aware of the intelligence level of mankind in heaven vs. angel intelligence. Seems to me Angels are servants for God and we are Sons. Big difference there.
Lastly for now to address- Angels seem to have a free will (Lucifer and the 1/3 of all angels).