Divine Liturgy and Calvary.

[ProCommunioneFacior]

Hello my brothers and sisters,

In the Catholic Church we believe that at every Mass, Christ's sacrifice at calvary is made present to us during the Eucharist. His sacrifice is re-presented to us in an unbloody manner.

I was wondering if there is a similar belief in the Orthodox Church?

Thank you.

 

[Rilian]

As I understand it, yes and no. I don't believe in Orthodoxy one would say that a re-sacrifice or re-enactment takes place. Rather I think what takes place could be termed the actualization of an ongoing event as the elements become the body and blood of Christ. The sacrifice of Christ is in this sense an eternal event that becomes present for us in the gifts. There is a whole idea called the liturgy of time in Orthodoxy that I can't describe very well but is very profound (to me anyway). It really changes the whole framework of what we view as the life of the church, both the parts visible to us and those we don't see.

I hope I didn't say anything hopelessly unOrthodox there, hopefully someone will come along and correct me if I did. I've been in jury duty all day, so I have an excuse this time if I've been heretical.

 

[ProCommunioneFacior]

Well, if what you said is true, then we believe the same thing. Catholics do not believe that it is a re-sacrifice or a re-enactment. Rather what you said here:

"Rather I think what takes place could be termed the actualization of an ongoing event as the elements become the body and blood of Christ. The sacrifice of Christ is in this sense an eternal event that becomes present for us in the gifts. There is a whole idea called the liturgy of time in Orthodoxy that I can't describe very well but is very profound (to me anyway). It really changes the whole framework of what we view as the life of the church, both the parts visible to us and those we don't see."

Explains beautifully what the Catholic Church believes. So if what you have presented is true about the Orthodox Church, then this is yet another area where we are united. Praise be to God!

 

[Umut]

Hello my brothers and sisters,

In the Catholic Church we believe that at every Mass, Christ's sacrifice at calvary is made present to us during the Eucharist. His sacrifice is re-presented to us in an unbloody manner.

I was wondering if there is a similar belief in the Orthodox Church?

Thank you.

I don't know the answer to your question, but what I DO know is that you could use 300 blessings from me.



Enjoy...

 

[ProCommunioneFacior]

Thank you for the blessings Umut. It was most kind of you.

 

[Philip]

As I understand it, yes and no. I don't believe in Orthodoxy one would say that a re-sacrifice or re-enactment takes place.

Certainly not a re-sacrifice. There are some symbolic "re-enactment" portions to the Divine Liturgy, but these are to reminders to the congregation.

Rather I think what takes place could be termed the actualization of an ongoing event as the elements become the body and blood of Christ. The sacrifice of Christ is in this sense an eternal event that becomes present for us in the gifts.

Not bad. We often say that we step out of time to participate in the Eucharist.

 

[ProCommunioneFacior]

Certainly not a re-sacrifice. There are some symbolic "re-enactment" portions to the Divine Liturgy, but these are to reminders to the congregation.



Not bad. We often say that we step out of time to participate in the Eucharist.

Would you say that you are in heaven during Divine Liturgy.

 

[Alfred M]

Just a brief message to share here...

"...the liturgy is served on earth, it is accomplished in heaven. But most important is the fact that what is accomplished in heaven is already accomplished, already is, already has been accomplished, already given. Christ has become man, died on the cross, descended into hades, arisen from the dead, ascended into heaven, sent down the Holy Spirit. In the liturgy, which we have been commanded to perform "until He comes", we do not repeat and we do not represent- we ascend into the mystery of salvation and new life, which has been accomplished once, but is granted to us "always, now and forever and unto ages of ages." And in this heavenly, eternal and otherworldly eucharist Christ does not come down to us, rather we ascend to Him."

Alexander Schmemann 1988

And what a wonderful mystery to behold and be able to participate in...this is what people are missing who do not know of the Orthodox Church.

In the love of our Saviour,
Alfred, lowliest of all sinners

 

[ProCommunioneFacior]

Awesome, I am so glad to hear that we hold to beliefs that are so common in this regard.

 

[Rilian]

proud2bcatholic, I always understood that in Roman Catholicism what was done at the altar was in fact a re-sacrifice. Is this some kind of popular notion I've bought into?

Aside from this, the one big sticking point would probably still be the mechanics of the transformation itself, at least in regards to the Eucharist.

 

[ProCommunioneFacior]

Yes, the term re-sacrifice is a widespread myth that has been spread by anti-Catholic protestants. They say that we believe that we sacrifice Jesus over and over and over again. This is a lie. We do not believe that, rather we believe what you have presented as the Orthodox belief.

If you are talking about transubstantiation, I thought that the Orthodox do not necessarily disagree with this, just that they choose to not explain it.

Besides, transubstantiation, is not what I am getting at. I was just wondering if the Orthodox had a similar teaching on how Jesus sacrifice and the Eucharist is intertwined.

 

[Philip]

If you are talking about transubstantiation, I thought that the Orthodox do not necessarily disagree with this, just that they choose to not explain it.

There is no prohibition against Transubstantiation, but we are strongly encouraged to avoid trying to explain the Mystery of the Eucharist in rational terms.

I was just wondering if the Orthodox had a similar teaching on how Jesus sacrifice and the Eucharist is intertwined.

There are certainly intertwined. Of course, we have a different understanding of Christ's sacrifie.

 

[ProCommunioneFacior]

What is different about your understanding of Christ's sacrifice?

 

[Hoonbaba]

We often say that we step out of time to participate in the Eucharist.

And this is what I love about liturgical traditions

Experiencing a taste of heaven on the earthly realm. It's so encouraging to know that both Catholics and Orthodox have the same 'early church fathers' who taught this

-Jason

 

[Philip]

What is different about your understanding of Christ's sacrifice?

We don't believe that Christ payed a debt for us by dying. We believe that our debts were forgiven, not transfered to another.

 

[Eusebios]

Just a brief message to share here...

"...the liturgy is served on earth, it is accomplished in heaven. But most important is the fact that what is accomplished in heaven is already accomplished, already is, already has been accomplished, already given. Christ has become man, died on the cross, descended into hades, arisen from the dead, ascended into heaven, sent down the Holy Spirit. In the liturgy, which we have been commanded to perform "until He comes", we do not repeat and we do not represent- we ascend into the mystery of salvation and new life, which has been accomplished once, but is granted to us "always, now and forever and unto ages of ages." And in this heavenly, eternal and otherworldly eucharist Christ does not come down to us, rather we ascend to Him."

Alexander Schmemann 1988

And what a wonderful mystery to behold and be able to participate in...this is what people are missing who do not know of the Orthodox Church.

In the love of our Saviour,
Alfred, lowliest of all sinners

Alfred,
Thanks for this great quote. In modern times, there is noone more articulate about Orthodox Sacramental theology than FR. Schmemann. I am continually blown away by the insights he shares.
proud2b, check out Fr. Schmemann's excellent work, For the Life of the World . It is highly enlightening.
His unworthy servant,
Eusebios.

 

[ProCommunioneFacior]

Thank you for the answer Philip, and thank you for the suggestion Eusebios, I will look into it.