Dispensationalism from a Reformed view...

[JM]

What problems (theologically speaking) does a Reformed believer have with dispensationalism?

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

What problems (theologically speaking) does a Reformed believer have with dispensationalism?

Besides the fact that it is unbiblical?

The biggest problem with dispensationalism is the way it wrongly divides the people of God. From the Orthodox Christian position (everyone except Dispies) we the Church are the Israel of God. We were grafted into Israel (Romans 11) We have become Abraham's heirs and descendents.

The Dispensationalist deny this, and they are (to my knowledge) the forst Chrisitans to do so. They believe Ethnic Israel is still God's people and the church is only a "parantheses."

Dispinsationalism is heterodox in this regard and is also fraught with antinomian tendencies.

Those are some of my thoughts on the matter.

In Christ,
Kenith

 

[CalvinOwen]

What problems (theologically speaking) does a Reformed believer have with dispensationalism?

The way it tears out the OT from the bible and teaches that God's Laws are no longer applicable to believers in this "Church Age."





"MAT 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

 

[ClementofRome]

What problems (theologically speaking) does a Reformed believer have with dispensationalism?

Since you asked....and I am not wanting to debate it, nor pick a fight: The way Dispis ignore the fact that John's Apocalypse (i.e, Revelation) is "apocalyptic literature" and should be interpreted as such. Ignoring the 7 fold structure of the book in favor of an ill-fated literalism/chronologicalism (the Larkin syndrome).

My father-in-law (may he enjoy his present glorification) and I used to go round and round! A very fun discussion.

 

[reformedfan]

What I don't like about it is how it places the NT as somewhat superior to the OT, although every single time the NT refers to Jesus telling an unbeliever the Gospel- 'opening up the Scriptures', "they have Moses & the prophets, if they don't believe them, they won't even believe one who rose from the dead; Tim's faith based on the teaching of his Mama & Grandma; etc- all of those were speaking of the OT, since there was no NT until it was all written & collected.
The funniest thing I've ever heard in response to people that say 'if the NT forbids it, then it must be so' is that since bestiality isn't specifically outlawed in the NT, it must be ok?
There would be no NT if not for Gen 3:15 & all the subsequent defining convenants that narrowed who the Christ was going to be.

 

[reformedfan]

ooops!

 

[JM]

All great points, keep'em coming. I'm not going to even try to debate them, I just want to read and study to defend what I believe.

God bless.

PS: Why does Paul talk about three kinds of people if we are now spiritual Jews?

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

PS: Why does Paul talk about three kinds of people if we are now spiritual Jews?

How about a text to go with the question.

In Christ,
Kenith

 

[JM]

How about a text to go with the question.

In Christ,
Kenith

First one to come to mind.
1Co 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

 

[reformedfan]

First one to come to mind.
1Co 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

Those are 3 different types of people. Only Christians today are Spiritual Israel. Gentiles were born outside of the covenant, are entirely ignorant of it, but could be brought under it by marriage or adoption (common grace- NOT saving grace) or conversion (if they are the elect). Jews were born under the covenant like Ishamel & Esau were, but rejected it, nevertheless know of it better than a Gentile, God deals with them different- harsher if no conversion.

 

[JM]

Those are 3 different types of people. Only Christians today are Spiritual Israel. Gentiles were born outside of the covenant, are entirely ignorant of it, but could be brought under it by marriage or adoption (common grace- NOT saving grace) or conversion (if they are the elect). Jews were born under the covenant like Ishamel & Esau were, but rejected it, nevertheless know of it better than a Gentile, God deals with them different- harsher if no conversion.

That's not much different then what I see in the quote, I do see Israel as a different group of folks still waiting for the Messiah and the Church as a group of elect. How does your view differ from the Dispensational view, besides the distinction between Israel and the Church?

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

That's not much different then what I see in the quote, I do see Israel as a different group of folks still waiting for the Messiah and the Church as a group of elect. How does your view differ from the Dispensational view, besides the distinction between Israel and the Church?

Dispensationalist teach that Jews are Gods chosen people. Paul in Romans 11 (and elsewhere) says that unbelieving Jews have been cut off from the Olive Tree which represents true Israel. Christians are the True Israel because we have been grafted into the Olive tree which represents the Israel of God.

Dispensationalists deny that we are Israel. They believe that we are simply a parentheses. They believe that God will return to Ethnic Israel in the millennium.

Reformed Christians believe the hope for Jews is to be grafted back into the Olive Tree (true Israel of God). We believe there is no future millennial restoration of Ethnic Israel as God's people apart from the Church.

Hope that helps.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[JM]

Yes, I too agree (with the dispensationalist), the Church was a mystery...

 

[johnny_redeemed]

First one to come to mind.
1Co 10:32Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

You need to understand that the Bible speaks of three kinds of people: National Jews, National Genitals and Spiritual Jews. The third group (Spiritual Jews) is made up of both National Jews (Paul, Matthew and Peter, to name a few) and National Genitals. The promises that God gave in the Old Testament were given to Spiritual Israel. NOT NATIONAL JEWS!!!



That is the biggest mistake the dispensationalists make.

 

[Laserman]

Street Preacher,

Regarding the church being a Mystery. The only mystery was that Jew and Gentile would form one body, one People of God. It's simply false that the " Church" is a mystery in the dispensationist idea. The word church simply means " Called Out ones" . The Old Testament Saints were the church according to Paul 1 Cor 10:1-4 and Steven Acts 7:38. Dispensationist do not understand understand Gal Chpt 3 at all. Did Christ die for Abraham? He certainly did. Christ died for the church and gave himself for it. Dispensationlism borders on heresey and is in my opinion the wolds largest cult. You can be a Calvinist and be dispensational, but you can't be "Reformed" and be dispensational. The two are theologically opposite.

Barry

 

[JM]

Street Preacher,

Regarding the church being a Mystery. The only mystery was that Jew and Gentile would form one body, one People of God. It's simply false that the " Church" is a mystery in the dispensationist idea. The word church simply means " Called Out ones" . The Old Testament Saints were the church according to Paul 1 Cor 10:1-4 and Steven Acts 7:38. Dispensationist do not understand understand Gal Chpt 3 at all. Did Christ die for Abraham? He certainly did. Christ died for the church and gave himself for it. Dispensationlism borders on heresey and is in my opinion the wolds largest cult. You can be a Calvinist and be dispensational, but you can't be "Reformed" and be dispensational. The two are theologically opposite.

Barry

Thank you Barry, I understand your point. I have to ask, did Israel know that gentiles would be included as the ones called out? Did they know, the Church was going to exist, with both Jews and gentiles and the Laws were going to be set aside...'law via Moses, Grace via Jesus?'

 

[Knight]

Interesting discussion.....

Allow me to throw a monkey-wrench into the works.

What effect does believing or not believing dispensationalism have on the day-to-day life of the Christian? Please be as specific as possible.

 

[JM]

Interesting discussion.....

Allow me to throw a monkey-wrench into the works.

What effect does believing or not believing dispensationalism have on the day-to-day life of the Christian? Please be as specific as possible.

I'm not sure what you mean, as far as I know (morally speaking), it doesn't. What it does, is place certain Scripture in a different light as to the who, what, when, where and why. It changes our mission as 'the Church.' Jesus spoke to His apostles telling them not to go unto the gentiles and then sends them out with the great commission. A dispensational understanding is needed to see the importance of that. The moral code is the same, the method and mode is different and a dispensational understanding helps in reguards to understanding this.

I'm a dispensationalist (Calvinist!) because I don't see (or maybe again, I don't understand): that two (or three) covenants exist but are never mentioned in Scripture, it tells us that both the Mosaic and Abrahamic covenants are the same (see Berhoff) but Paul tells us they differ Galatians 3:18, hermaneutic problems in reguards to Catholicism/Augustinism and most importantly it places the believer under law.

Also note, Dispensationalism was born out of the Reformed Church and the Puritan drive to have a precise understanding of the Bible. It was the godly men of the Reformed Church that spread dispensational theology in N. A.

http://www.pre-trib.org/pdf/Clough-DispensationalViewof.pdf

 

[Knight]

I'm not sure what you mean, as far as I know (morally speaking), it doesn't. What it does, is place certain Scripture in a different light as to the who, what, when, where and why.

Ok.

It changes our mission as 'the Church.' Jesus spoke to His apostles telling them not to go unto the gentiles and then sends them out with the great commission. A dispensational understanding is needed to see the importance of that.

In what way?

As far as I've seen the preaching and teaching of the Gospel is as important to dispensationalists as those who favor covenant theology.

The moral code is the same, the method and mode is different and a dispensational understanding helps in reguards to understanding this.

How so? What is the application?


I am not trying to be difficult but I see this endless debate rage on and on in Christian circles. What I do not see is the practical application of either in our walk with Christ. It seems most academic. (Not that I have a problem with that necessarily) I'm looking for an explanation of this is clear, unambiguous terms.

Also, as a personal request... I understand Covenant theology but I have never heard a clear, consice description of dispensationalism. Would you be able to provide this?

 

[Dmckay]

I am a strong believer in all points of T.U.L.I.P. and also use a modified dispensational hermeneutic. I believe there is very good reson not to mix Israel and the Church, nor to consider the Church spiritual Israel. Beyond the fact that God has an eternal Covenant relationship based of His Word and His Promise to Abraham. Israel is a specifically defined group of people unto whom certain promises, responsibilities and future have been predetermined by God. The church consists of another specificall defined group of people unto whom completelly different, promises, responsibilities and future have been promised. When compared side-by-side Israel and The Church are like apples and helicopters, completely different. Consider:
SOME BASIC DEFINITIONS

ISRAEL—The most commonly accepted definition is those persons descended from Abraham through the lineage of Isaac, Jacob, and the sons of Jacob. The definition of Israel is so closely related with the purpose for which God called & established Israel, that the two can’t properly be separated.
“God chose Abraham to be the head of a special people (Gen. 12:1–3). He limited the line after Abraham to Isaac (Gen. 17:21), Jacob (Gen. 25:23; 27:27–29), and to the twelve sons of Jacob (Gen. 49). He chose Israel for Himself, to make them a nation of priests, and a holy nation (Ex. 19:4–6). It was not a decree to salvation in the first place, but to outward standing and privilege. This outward standing & privilege was, however, by means of His Holy law and divine institutions to lead them to salvation and acceptable service. Included in the later was the solemn responsibility to be a spiritual blessing to the surrounding nations.”
—H.C. Theissen
Introductory Lecture in Systematic Theology

THE CHURCH—If the term church (ecclasia) were to mean all the saints of all ages, then it would be evident that the church must go through the tribulation, as we are told that there will be saints in the tribulation. So it becomes necessary to define just what is meant by this Greek word that literally means, “the called out ones.” The church consists of all those who, in this dispensation, have been born of the Spirit of God, and baptized into the Body of Christ.
Paul, writing to the church at Corinth, said of the Church, “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we all were made to drink of one Spirit.” I Corinthians 12:13.
The Church is composed only of those believers in Christ from the day of Pentecost until the Rapture of the Church. The purpose of the Church as stated by Scripture, is clearly different from that of any other group in Scripture. This purpose is seen as seven–fold:
1. To glorify God.
2. To edify itself.
3. To purify itself.
4. To educate it’s constituency.
5. To evangelize the world.
6. To act as a restraining and enlightening force in the world.
7. To promote all good.
SOME DISTINCTIONS BETWEEN ISRAEL & THE CHURCH

I Corinthians 10:32 “Neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the Church of God,” shows that Paul made a distinction between the Jewish people, the Church, and gentiles. There are many definite contrasts between Israel and the Church here are but a few:

ISRAEL

Promise of a nation, a land, and a citizenship in Canaan, Gen. 12:1–3; 13:15.

Promise of great blessing and satisfaction of physical needs as a reward for a Godly life, Deuteronomy 8:7–10.

Life is a thing earned by a certain line of obedience, Leviticus 18:.

Promise of the Restoration of Israel is an earthly blessing, Isaiah 11:11–12; 14:1; Jeremiah 23:5–6.

Blessings were conditional, Deuteronomy 28–30.

Chosen in Abram, Deuteronomy 7:6; Nehemiah 9:7.

Purposed to be a great nation, a great blessing, and to dwell alone, Genesis 12:2; Numbers 23:9.

CHURCH

Promise of a citizenship in Heaven, Philippians 3:20.

Promise of great physical need, as a reward for a Godly service–filled life, I Corinthians 4:11–12.

Saved by faith, not through works, Ephesians 2:8–10.

Future of the Church has to do with Heaven, and heavenly blessings, I Thessalonians 4:16–17.

Blessings are unconditional.

Chosen in Him (Christ), Ephesians 1:4.

Purposed to build the Body of Christ—the Church, Ephesians 1:4, 22–23; Colossians 1:18.


THE TRIBULATION—(thalipsis) This Greek word translated tribulation appears some 54 times in the New Testament, with many varied uses. Clearly some 24 times it’s meaning is only that of any time of suffering or testing, such as the persecution believers endure for their faith (Matthew 13:21; Mark 4:17). The remaining 30 occurrences it is used in a eschatological sense with reference to either: 1) the entire seven-year period known as the both “70th week of Daniel” (Daniel 9:27), and the “time of Jacob’s trouble” (Jeremiah 30:7); or 2) in it’s narrower sense as the last 3 1/2 years of this seven-year period commonly referred to as the “Great Tribulation” (Matthew 24:21).
The nature or character of this period can be discerned from several passages of Scripture as being: 1) of wrath (Zeph. 1:15, 18; I Thess 1: 10; 5:9; Rev. 6:16–17); 2) of judgment (Rev. 14:7; 15:4); 3) of trial (Rev. 3:10); 4) of destruction (Joel 1:15; I Thessalonians 5:3); 5) of darkness (Joel 2:2; Amos 5:18); and 6) of desolation (Daniel 9:27; Zeph. 1:14–15). It will be a time of such unsurpassed carnage and destruction that Jesus said, “…except those days should be shortened, there would no flesh be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.” Matthew 24:22. The purpose of the Tribulation is stated in Daniel 9:24, “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people [THE JEWS] and upon thy holy city, to 1) finish the transgression, and 2) make an end of sins, and 3) to make reconciliation for iniquity, and 4) to bring in everlasting righteousness, and 5) to seal up the vision and prophecy, and 6) to anoint the Most Holy.” This prophecy was given to Daniel, a Jew, regarding the Jewish people, and the Jewish city of Jerusalem. In short, the primary purpose of the tribulation is to prepare, thru purging, the Jewish people for the Coming of their Messiah.
A secondary purpose for the tribulation is as an outpouring of the Wrath of God upon the unbelieving men and nations as “the Times of the Gentiles” (Luke 21:24) comes to an end.

“For, behold, the Lord cometh out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity.” —Isaiah 26:21

“and for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie; that they all might be damned who believe not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”
—II Thessalonians 2:12

PROMISES TO THE CHURCH
REGARDING THE RAPTURE & WRATH

1. I Thess. 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

2. Rev. 6:17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?

3. I Thess. 1:9 for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God,

I Thess. 1:10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

4. Rev. 3:10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

5. II Pet. 2:6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

II Pet. 2:7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men

II Pet. 2:8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)—

II Pet. 2:9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.