Dispensational Proposition #5

[GLJCA]

The church age began at Pentecost and will end at the Pretribulation Rapture.

The truthfulness of this proposition, as with the first, depends upon how the term “Church” is defined. Since the church is the body of Christ and since it is impossible for anyone past, present, or future to be saved apart from union with Christ, one should define the church as the believers of all ages, the elect. Scripture teaches us that all who are saved must be “in Christ”. (Rom. 8:1; 1 Cor 15:22; 2 Cor 5:17; Eph 2:12). If no one can be saved without being “in Christ” then Old Testament believers must be in Christ because they were looking forward to Him. If the body of Christ or the church includes OT Believers, then the “church age”, strictly speaking, did not begin at Pentecost. The present age could more precisely be called the “new covenant church age” since the church has existed for many ages.

It is a fact that the New Testament saints are heirs together with the saints of the Old Testament. The OT saints and the NT saints make up one body of believers, which is the body of Christ.

Here are some quotes from Dispensational theologians.

Lewis Sperry Chafer – The principle emphasis in the New Testament is on the church as an organism, a living union of all true believers in Christ. This is the distinctive truth that is presented beginning with the day of Pentecost, with the advent of the Spirit, and concluding with the coming of Christ for His church, in which the church will be caught up out of the world and taken to heaven. (Major Bible Themes: 236)

John F. Walvoord – “…the body of Christ which properly began on the Day of Pentecost and culminates in the translation of the true church.(“The Church in Prophecy”, 24)


J. Dwight Pentecost – “It is after the rejection of the cross that the church is in it's inception in Acts 2. The present age in respect to the true church terminates with the translation of the church in to the Lord’s presence. (Things to Come, 201)

Charles C. Ryrie – “The church did not begin until the day of Pentecost and will be removed from this world at the rapture which precedes the Second Coming of Christ. (Basis of Premillenial Faith, 136)

God Bless
GLJCA

 

[holdon]

The church age began at Pentecost and will end at the Pretribulation Rapture.

The truthfulness of this proposition, as with the first, depends upon how the term “Church” is defined. Since the church is the body of Christ and since it is impossible for anyone past, present, or future to be saved apart from union with Christ, one should define the church as the believers of all ages,

Your reasoning is flawed. You equate without foundation that all saved belong to the church the body of Christ. It is clear however that there were saved people before Christ and they did not belong to the Church, because Christ announced that He would build His Church yet in the future when He spoke these words in Mt 16:18

"And I also, I say unto thee that thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build my assembly, and hades' gates shall not prevail against it."

Also, the Church is built upon the foundations of the apostles, which clearly were not present in the OT.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

The church age began at Pentecost and will end at the Pretribulation Rapture.

The truthfulness of this proposition, as with the first, depends upon how the term “Church” is defined. Since the church is the body of Christ and since it is impossible for anyone past, present, or future to be saved apart from union with Christ, one should define the church as the believers of all ages, the elect. Scripture teaches us that all who are saved must be “in Christ”. (Rom. 8:1; 1 Cor 15:22; 2 Cor 5:17; Eph 2:12). If no one can be saved without being “in Christ” then Old Testament believers must be in Christ because they were looking forward to Him.

OT believers did not have God inside of them....

only a few had the HS beside them and this was not always permenant

those that are in Christ also have God inside of them.. John 17:3, 1 john 5:20

If the body of Christ or the church includes OT Believers, then the “church age”, strictly speaking, did not begin at Pentecost. The present age could more precisely be called the “new covenant church age” since the church has existed for many ages.

It is a fact that the New Testament saints are heirs together with the saints of the Old Testament. The OT saints and the NT saints make up one body of believers, which is the body of Christ.

Here are some quotes from Dispensational theologians.

Lewis Sperry Chafer – The principle emphasis in the New Testament is on the church as an organism, a living union of all true believers in Christ. This is the distinctive truth that is presented beginning with the day of Pentecost, with the advent of the Spirit, and concluding with the coming of Christ for His church, in which the church will be caught up out of the world and taken to heaven. (Major Bible Themes: 236)

John F. Walvoord – “…the body of Christ which properly began on the Day of Pentecost and culminates in the translation of the true church.(“The Church in Prophecy”, 24)


J. Dwight Pentecost – “It is after the rejection of the cross that the church is in it's inception in Acts 2. The present age in respect to the true church terminates with the translation of the church in to the Lord’s presence. (Things to Come, 201)

Charles C. Ryrie – “The church did not begin until the day of Pentecost and will be removed from this world at the rapture which precedes the Second Coming of Christ. (Basis of Premillenial Faith, 136)

God Bless
GLJCA

there are also different promises hebrews 11:40, 1 peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 8:6

please do not ignore these verses

 

[GLJCA]

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Your reasoning is flawed. You equate without foundation that all saved belong to the church the body of Christ. It is clear however that there were saved people before Christ and they did not belong to the Church, because Christ announced that He would build His Church yet in the future when He spoke these words in Mt 16:18

"And I also, I say unto thee that thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build my assembly, and hades' gates shall not prevail against it."

Also, the Church is built upon the foundations of the apostles, which clearly were not present in the OT.

Your thinking is the 20th century modern but not biblical. The term Church is not a NT term it was used in the OT defining an assembly of Israelites. The greek word for Church is ekklesia.

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Who was church Steven was talking about here? It was all the Jews that left out of Egypt and were in the wilderness while they waited for God's commandments. So as you see the Church existed long before Pentecost but was not complete without us.
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Notice the phrase "they without us should not be made perfect", but with us, all are made perfect in Christ. No one can be made righteous unless they are in Christ, therefore in Dispensational thinking there are no righteous Jews today. Neither were the Jews that repented and believed the gospel in Acts 2 righteous, not even Peter and the twelve apostles. Does that make sense?

GLJCA

 

[holdon]

Your thinking is the 20th century modern but not biblical. The term Church is not a NT term it was used in the OT defining an assembly of Israelites. The greek word for Church is ekklesia.

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Who was church Steven was talking about here? It was all the Jews that left out of Egypt and were in the wilderness while they waited for God's commandments. So as you see the Church existed long before Pentecost but was not complete without us.
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Notice the phrase "they without us should not be made perfect", but with us, all made perfect in Christ. No one can be made righteous unless they are in Christ, therefore in Dispensational thinking there are no righteous Jews today. Neither were the Jews that repented and believed the gospel in Acts 2 righteous, not even Peter and the twelve apostles. Does that make sense?

GLJCA

They not without us made perfect, I believe refers to the moment when we jointly with the resurrected OT believers will be surrounding Christ.
And you're right there are no righteous Jews today, outside the Church that is. If a Jew is righteous today, he is in the Church. Acts 2 says they were added daily to it: the Church.

Now as to your other point about "ekklesia", you must have missed another message that I posted also in reply to you.

If you want to be consistent on that reasoning, namely that "ekklesia" always means "Church" (the body of Christ) then you need to call the "ekklesia" in Acts 19 Church also.... Here is the verse:

19:32 Different persons therefore cried out some different thing; for the assembly (ekklesia) was tumultuous, and the most did not know for what cause they had come together.

The truth of the matter is that "ekklesia" means simply "assembly". Acts 7 says there was an assembly in the wilderness; Acts 19 says that there was an assembly in Ephesus; other places call the body of Christ, all NT believers God's assembly. 3 different things.

 

[GLJCA]

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OT believers did not have God inside of them....

only a few had the HS beside them and this was not always permenant

those that are in Christ also have God inside of them.. John 17:3, 1 john 5:20


there are also different promises hebrews 11:40, 1 peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 8:6

please do not ignore these verses

Again that is not a correct statement. David ask that the Holy Spirit not be taken from him. When a priest was anointed it signified that they were immersed in the Holy Spirit.

I agree with the scripture in John and 1 John but are you saying that no OT saint has eternal life? Abraham, the father of the faithful does not have eternal life even though he was looking forward to the Messiah in faith?

Again I believe those verses that you have presented.
Hebrews 11:40 we see that without us the OT saints could not be perfect but with us we are all made perfect in Christ.

1 Peter 1:10 shows that the OT prophets prophesied of the grace of God that brings salvation to those that believe. Now the Acts 2 Dispy does not believe that the gospel of grace went to those in Peter so what could that be talking about?

Hebrew 8:6 is speaking of the New Covenant in Christ's blood that was established at the resurrection of Christ and Christ being the mediator of that Covenant. Because of the New Covenant you and I can approach God's throne and seek forgiveness. Christ's blood, the blood of the New Covenant, washed away our sins according to the promise that has been applied to us in Jer 31:34. God promised that He would remember our sins no more. Other than Christ's blood of the New Covenant, we have no basis to say that our sins are cleansed because with the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.

Are those the promises that you are talking about? I know there are many more that we can talk about. There is no doubt that there are better promises in the New Covenant that we and the OT saints are enjoying today because of Christ.

GLJCA

 

[GLJCA]

They without us made perfect, I believe refers to the moment when we jointly with the resurrected OT believers will be surrounding Christ.
And you're right there are no righteous Jews today, outside the Church that is. If a Jew is righteous today, he is in the Church. Acts 2 says they were added daily to it: the Church.

Now as to your other point about "ekklesia", you must have missed another message that I posted also in reply to you.

If you want to be consistent on that reasoning, namely that "ekklesia" always means "Church" (the body of Christ) then you need to call the "ekklesia" in Acts 19 Church also.... Here is the verse:

19:32 Different persons therefore cried out some different thing; for the assembly (ekklesia) was tumultuous, and the most did not know for what cause they had come together.

The truth of the matter is that "ekklesia" means simply "assembly". Acts 7 says there was an assembly in the wilderness; Acts 19 says that there was an assembly in Ephesus; other places call the body of Christ, all NT believers God's assembly. 3 different things.

My point exactly. Ekklesia in the New Testament is translated "Church" so when you say the church(ekklesia) began at Pentecost it is not true.

The Church is the assembly of God(not the denomination), and they existed in the OT as well as the NT as the covenant people of God and are all found in the olive tree.
Now when we as Gentile believers are grafted into the same olive tree that the OT saints are in then what does that make us? It makes us Israel and makes the OT saints the Church, thus the Church is the Israel of God today.

GLJCA

 

[holdon]

My point exactly. Ekklesia in the New Testament is translated "Church" so when you say the church(ekklesia) began at Pentecost it is not true.

The Church is the assembly of God(not the denomination), and they existed in the OT as well as the NT as the covenant people of God and are all found in the olive tree.
Now when we as Gentile believers are grafted into the same olive tree that the OT saints are in then what does that make us? It makes us Israel and makes the OT saints the Church, thus the Church is the Israel of God today.

GLJCA

So, according to you the "tumultuous assembly" in Acts 19 is the Church too? Or this: "And having said these things, he dismissed the Church??? (v. 41)
If your logic is consistent then that is what you're saying. Have you even read Acts 19???

Fact is the Acts 7 assembly is not called God's assembly at all. It is not called the body of Christ, or an habitation of God through the Spirit. Just the assembly of the Israelites. Your point doesn't prove anything or rather the contrary of what you wish.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Again that is not a correct statement. David ask that the Holy Spirit not be taken from him. When a priest was anointed it signified that they were immersed in the Holy Spirit.

I agree with the scripture in John and 1 John but are you saying that no OT saint has eternal life?

if they had eternal life what is the big deal in John 14:20-21 is BRAND NEW which is the ability to do John 17:3

Abraham, the father of the faithful does not have eternal life even though he was looking forward to the Messiah in faith?

Again I believe those verses that you have presented.
Hebrews 11:40 we see that without us the OT saints could not be perfect but with us we are all made perfect in Christ.

1 Peter 1:10 shows that the OT prophets prophesied of the grace of God that brings salvation to those that believe. Now the Acts 2 Dispy does not believe that the gospel of grace went to those in Peter so what could that be talking about?

these prophets did not understand how there King would suffer...

Hebrew 8:6 is speaking of the New Covenant in Christ's blood that was established at the resurrection of Christ and Christ being the mediator of that Covenant. Because of the New Covenant you and I can approach God's throne and seek forgiveness. Christ's blood, the blood of the New Covenant, washed away our sins according to the promise that has been applied to us in Jer 31:34. God promised that He would remember our sins no more. Other than Christ's blood of the New Covenant, we have no basis to say that our sins are cleansed because with the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.

how many Jews in the OT under law were able to get close to God... The High priest once a year...that is it

Are those the promises that you are talking about? I know there are many more that we can talk about. There is no doubt that there are better promises in the New Covenant that we and the OT saints are enjoying today because of Christ.

GLJCA

the church [penacost till the rapture] get the closest relationship to the Son of God....