Dismantling Judeo-Christian values in America

FAITH-IN-HIM said:

I support Jews and Isreal because they are loved and chosen by God.

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More so than your fellow Christians?

FAITH-IN-HIM said:

Whether you follow the 66 books of the Protestant Bible or the Orthodox Bible, the biblical text states clearly that Jews are God's chosen people. Throughout the Old Testament, God repeatedly assures Israel of His protection and consistently affirms His role as their Father.

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This is a debatable subject. Certainly the historic Church did not see as it's primary mission the goals of Zionism nor did we ever treat the Jews as anything other than they were. Deniers of our Lord. They were enemies on account of the Gospel and we as Christians had no obligation to create for them a Nation in Israel, especially as they continued to deny their Messiah.

FAITH-IN-HIM said:

In Romans, Paul dedicates three chapters to comparing Christian faith with Judaism. He also notes that Christians are branches, while Jews are the root.

Paul states in Romans that Christians are included in God’s plan due to the disobedience of the Jews and should not be prideful. He adds that, although God has temporarily rejected the Jews, He will ultimately welcome them again and offer eternal life to all.

In the book of Romans, Paul refers to a conversation between the prophet Elisha and God. Elisha expresses concern that the Jewish people have killed prophets, destroyed the temple, and eliminated all the faithful, claiming he is the only one left. Elisha questions why God would continue to save Israel. In response, God tells Elisha that despite acts of disobedience, there are seven thousand individuals who have remained faithful, and for their sake, God will continue to protect and bless Israel.


1 King 14: 14-18

He replied, “I have been very zealous for the Lord God Almighty. The Israelites have rejected your covenant, torn down your altars, and put your prophets to death with the sword. I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me too.”

15 The Lord said to him, “Go back the way you came, and go to the Desert of Damascus. When you get there, anoint Hazael king over Aram. 16 Also, anoint Jehu son of Nimshi king over Israel, and anoint Elisha son of Shaphat from Abel Meholah to succeed you as prophet. 17 Jehu will put to death any who escape the sword of Hazael, and Elisha will put to death any who escape the sword of Jehu. 18 Yet I reserve seven thousand in Israel—all whose knees have not bowed down to Baal and whose mouths have not kissed him.”

The Bible repeatedly states that the Jewish people are regarded as God's chosen people. It affirms that the nation of Israel has been, and will continue to be, protected by God. According to biblical texts, this protection is promised irrespective of obedience or disobedience.

Given this understanding of biblical teachings and God's intentions for Jews and Isreal, may I ask why you would choose not to offer them your unconditional support?

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My intention with the question is to compare your love and support of the Jews, their earthly prosperity and sovereignty to your support of fellow Christians like the Armenians. You never answered my question about the Armenians and genocide, whether it was better for them to be sovereign over themselves or subjects of the Ottomans and thus experience a genocide. Perhaps you could answer now.

No doubt you oppose the haulocaust, but do you oppose the Armenian Genocide? Or are Christians different? We're allowed to be slaughtered? We are supposed to not attached to this world therefore we can be ruled over and killed with impunity? You are eager to announce your love for Israel, and unconditional love so that even if Israel destroyed every Church and kicked every Christian out of Israel i suppose you would still love Israel.

But to me our love and especially our support should never be given to countries unconditionally. Israel recently attacked a Church and killed 3 Christian Palestinians. Do you think they ought to do something to compensate those Christians and the Church? If they don't would you still support Israel?

Why do you find it so hard to support your fellow Christians throughout history?

FAITH-IN-HIM said:

Finally we have something in common; We both share belief in the Nicene Creed, which is essential to Christianity's foundation. We also uphold the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, as it is an essential foundation of Christianity. Additionally, we affirm our belief in the Resurrection of Christ and the promise of eternal life in heaven..

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How can you affirm the Nicene Creed as a standard for faith when it was written by men who belonged to a Church Tradition you have no part in?

FAITH-IN-HIM said:

I believe in church history only as recorded in the 27 books of the New Testament; I do not accept anything outside of them.

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So there were no Christians before you and after Saint John? Did The Church cease to exist after the first century?

FAITH-IN-HIM said:

You have accurately identified the distinctions between other Christian groups and Jehovah's Witnesses as well as Mormons.

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I'd also identify the differences between your type of Christianity and the historic Church traditions. Christianity, even in the Protestant tradition (Lutherans, Anglicans and Calvinists), had always sought continuity with those who came before. Nor did we believe Christians were a unique class of people who must be subjects, ruled over and never rule themselves. The Gospel was not only reserved for the slave or the serf but anyone could believe in it, if he had great authority or no authority.

This is my frustration throughout this entire conversation with you and others with your opinion. It's as if because for most of history Christians weren't Americans with a constitution they failed to live lives according to Christian principles.

Do you radically distinguish yourself from all Christians after the New Testament and before you? Were there Christians in the 10th century? Were there Christians in the 4th century? You claim to adhere to the Nicene Creed but I don't think you could take those men seriously as Christians nor could you submit yourself to the Creed because it is from the Church we get it.

JosephZ said:

As long as Muslims practice their religion within the laws of the lands they live in, what business is it of ours how they live their lives?

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Well, we can see how well that is working.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

More so than your fellow Christians?


This is a debatable subject. Certainly the historic Church did not see as it's primary mission the goals of Zionism nor did we ever treat the Jews as anything other than they were. Deniers of our Lord. They were enemies on account of the Gospel and we as Christians had no obligation to create for them a Nation in Israel, especially as they continued to deny their Messiah.

My intention with the question is to compare your love and support of the Jews, their earthly prosperity and sovereignty to your support of fellow Christians like the Armenians. You never answered my question about the Armenians and genocide, whether it was better for them to be sovereign over themselves or subjects of the Ottomans and thus experience a genocide. Perhaps you could answer now.

No doubt you oppose the haulocaust, but do you oppose the Armenian Genocide? Or are Christians different? We're allowed to be slaughtered? We are supposed to not attached to this world therefore we can be ruled over and killed with impunity? You are eager to announce your love for Israel, and unconditional love so that even if Israel destroyed every Church and kicked every Christian out of Israel i suppose you would still love Israel.

But to me our love and especially our support should never be given to countries unconditionally. Israel recently attacked a Church and killed 3 Christian Palestinians. Do you think they ought to do something to compensate those Christians and the Church? If they don't would you still support Israel?

Why do you find it so hard to support your fellow Christians throughout history?

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I strongly condemn the atrocity in Armenia and would have supported US and NATO intervention to protect Armenian Christians if it occurred today. We are on same page.

I just watched a documentary about Christians facing persecution in the Middle East in modern day. Chaldean Christians have been particularly devastated since the fall of Iraq after the US intervention, suffering more during the war than most other groups.

During the 2003 invasion of Iraq, many Americans focused on concerns about Museum and Saddam’s art collection, but there was little or no discussion about protecting Chaldean Christians. The United States focused on building a coalition of Shiite and Sunni groups and establishing democracy in Iraq, but the Chaldean Christian community was decimated during the conflict.

Similarly, Christians throughout the Middle East have endured persecution over the past 2,000 years, and many continue to face persecution today. Middle Eastern Christians face persecution from both Arab Muslims, who see them as Westerners, and Jews, who view them as Arabs, while we the Westerners are unaware ( deny or don’t care) of their existence.

Christians in the Middle East face suffering and persecution, yet we in the West take no action.

FAITH-IN-HIM said:

I strongly condemn the atrocity in Armenia and would have supported US and NATO intervention to protect Armenian Christians if it occurred today. We are on same page.

I just watched a documentary about Christians facing persecution in the Middle East in modern day. Chaldean Christians have been particularly devastated since the fall of Iraq after the US intervention, suffering more during the war than most other groups.

During the 2003 invasion of Iraq, many Americans focused on concerns about Museum and Saddam’s art collection, but there was little or no discussion about protecting Chaldean Christians. The United States focused on building a coalition of Shiite and Sunni groups and establishing democracy in Iraq, but the Chaldean Christian community was decimated during the conflict.

Similarly, Christians throughout the Middle East have endured persecution over the past 2,000 years, and many continue to face persecution today. Middle Eastern Christians face persecution from both Arab Muslims, who see them as Westerners, and Jews, who view them as Arabs, while we the Westerners are unaware ( deny or don’t care) of their existence.

Christians in the Middle East face suffering and persecution, yet we in the West take no action.

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Why should the Liberal and Democratic West do anything for Middle Eastern Christians in your mind? You seem to embrace Democracy and Secularism, why does it matter if Christians fade from the Middle East or get persecuted? Isn't the goal to get Muslims to embrace modernity first instead of protect Christians?

Do Christians even have a reasonable hope for political security when they aren't allowed to participate in politics for collective self interest?

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

Why should the Liberal and Democratic West do anything for Middle Eastern Christians in your mind? You seem to embrace Democracy and Secularism, why does it matter if Christians fade from the Middle East or get persecuted? Isn't the goal to get Muslims to embrace modernity first instead of protect Christians?

Do Christians even have a reasonable hope for political security when they aren't allowed to participate in politics for collective self interest?

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Ultimately, you often returns to the idea of establishing a Christian nation.

I regrate to inform you that most Christians today, including members of the Catholic Church, do not support the establishment of a Christian nation. Instead, they believe Christianity is best practiced within the church and through evangelism.

Our hope as a Christian is not on “political security” , our hope is on Jesus Christ the Son of God!

FAITH-IN-HIM said:

Ultimately, you often returns to the idea of establishing a Christian nation.

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Not my point. You support a Liberal secular political order. I mean liberal here in the sense of enlightenment values of equality, freedom and other values. You may personally lament the fate of Christians in the middle east but nothing the established political powers of our era will do will help middle Eastern Christians. Not the Chaldeans not the Armenians. On the same premise you may reject a Christian nation, would you reject a foreign policy which actually sought to support fellow Christians first above any other group? You'd have to, to be consistent with your American secular liberal values. As Christians you believe it impermissible for us to act in our own political interest.

I suppose the difference between you and I is that I don't subordinate my Christianity to the political order of our day. I don't filter my Christianity through the enlightenment or the American constitution.

FAITH-IN-HIM said:

I regrate to inform you that most Christians today, including members of the Catholic Church, do not support the establishment of a Christian nation. Instead, they believe Christianity is best practiced within the church and through evangelism.

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I would go further than simply a Christian nation and say Christians if they want to thrive need to have a radical separation from the political powers. Christians need to act as the early Christians did towards Rome. This has always been my point and since I believe this would result in success it is only natural a Christian Nation would be formed. Not because that is the goal but that is the only natural outcome of Christians living Christian lives.

FAITH-IN-HIM said:

Our hope as a Christian is not on “political security” , our hope is on Jesus Christ the Son of God!

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So then the Armenians of Ngorno Kharabach didn't deserve political security? They could have their land taken and tough cookies? There are real and lasting consequences to avoiding security for Christians, to avoiding power and interests. Some here seem to be of the position we can afford to be in a position of weakness forever and that Christians in the past by getting us out of that position were somehow at fault. Yet they are the beneficiaries of those same Christians who made Christianity secure for their descendants. This sort of high time preference view of Christianity which doesn't take into consideration anyone else except the individual here in the now, cannot stand the test of time.