Dismantling Judeo-Christian values in America

FAITH-IN-HIM · Jul 25, 2025

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
I don't deny we are called to suffer but are we also called to allow our brothers and sisters to be slaughtered at the whims of non Christians? Are you advocating pacifism?

I am not advocating any thing, but i am following Jesus’ teaching.

Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.

But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

The choice is clear: either follow Jesus’ commandments or decide what we think is best for society. I choose to follow Jesus’ commandments.

FAITH-IN-HIM · Jul 25, 2025

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
And you would have preferred if Pagans remained dominant within Western society and Christianity failed to convert the masses? What about Pagan or Islamic rule makes it preferable to Christian rule?

This is not about my preferences; it is Christ's prophecy, Jesus said unbelievers would rule the world.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Jul 25, 2025

FAITH-IN-HIM said:
This is not about my preferences; it is Christ's prophecy, Jesus said unbelievers would rule the world.

Where did Jesus say all power would belong to non Christians? Do you believe this is a mandate? That those in power are not called to faith?

public hermit · Jul 25, 2025

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Where did Jesus say all power would belong to non Christians?

He said my kingdom is not of this world, and it isn't. The kingdoms of this world depend on force as their power to bring about obedience. The Kingdom of God depends on love as the power for bringing about obedience. God will succeed because human force and violence destroy; they can never create. The cross and resurrection make this all very clear, which is why I don't understand the confusion.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Jul 25, 2025

public hermit said:
He said my kingdom is not of this world, and it isn't. The kingdoms of this world depend on force as their power to bring about obedience. The Kingdom of God depends on love as the power for bringing about obedience. God will succeed because human force and violence destroy; they can never create. The cross and resurrection make this all very clear, which is why I don't understand the confusion.

Well I'll ask you the same question Faith couldn't answer. Was it better for the Armenians to be out of power and subjects of the Ottomans than to be in power and have a measure of sovereignty over themselves? Are Christians to remain a perpetual Dhimmi class?

public hermit · Jul 25, 2025

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Well I'll ask you the same question Faith couldn't answer. Was it better for the Armenians to be out of power and subjects of the Ottomans than to be in power and have a measure of sovereignty over themselves? Are Christians to remain a perpetual Dhimmi class?

That's a point, but you would reject a functioning democracy in favor of a theocratic rule, so I reject the example as relevant to the discussion. The question is not, "What should Christians do under forms of tyranny?, " but "Should Christians form a tyranny?"

Ignatius the Kiwi · Jul 25, 2025

public hermit said:
That's a point, but you would reject a functioning democracy in favor of a theocratic rule, so I reject the example as relevant to the discussion. The question is not, "What should Christians do under forms of tyranny?, " but "Should Christians form a tyranny?"

Im not opposed to democracy inherently. A Christian democracy where Christians voted in their own self interest is fine to me but pure democracy is not what uou are advocating for. Instead liberal democracy which undermines Christian self interest.

But can you answer my question? About the Armenians? About Dhimmi status?

public hermit · Jul 25, 2025

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Im not opposed to democracy inherently. A Christian democracy where Christians voted in their own self interest is fine to me but pure democracy is not what uou are advocating for. Instead liberal democracy which undermines Christian self interest.

But can you answer my question? About the Armenians? About Dhimmi status?

And what if the Christians aren't a majority? Are you going to accept that and think it good or rail against the evils of democracy? You can't have it both ways. And if you must have it one way, that's a recipe for tyranny.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Jul 25, 2025

public hermit said:
And what if the Christians aren't a majority? Are you going to accept that and think it good or rail against the evils of democracy? You can't have it both ways. And if you must have it one way, that's a recipe for tyranny.

If they aren't the majority they should continue to act in their own self interest as a community. Do you think the early Christians didn't do this?

Are you going to answer thr question about thr Armenians or is like I've said before, you are ashamed of where your opinion leads? That ultimately a genocide could not be resisted as is preferred to Christians in power in your worldview?

public hermit · Jul 25, 2025

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Are you going to answer thr question about thr Armenians or is like I've said before, you are ashamed of where your opinion leads? That ultimately a genocide could not be resisted as is preferred to Christians in power in your worldview?

I never said that. You are saying that. Again, you are talking about something that is unrelated to the question at hand. I refer you to my earlier comment.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
If they aren't the majority they should continue to act in their own self interest as a community. Do you think the early Christians didn't do this?

Ideally, Christians act in the interests of everyone relevant to their location and context, regardless of faith. Jesus told a parable about a Good Samaritan precisely to that point. The lawyer wanted to carve up humanity into two groups: those he must love and those he need not love. Jesus told the parable to show there is only one group: those you must love. Love you neighbor as yourself. Maybe this needs to be said: self-interest is not the way of Christ.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Jul 25, 2025

public hermit said:
I never said that. You are saying that. Again, you are talking about something that is unrelated to the question at hand. I refer you to my earlier comment.

public hermit said:
Ideally, Christians act in the interests of everyone relevant to their location and context, regardless of faith. Jesus told a parable about a Good Samaritan precisely to that point. The lawyer wanted to carve up humanity into two groups: those he must love and those he need not love. Jesus told the parable to show there is only one group: those you must love. Love you neighbor as yourself. Maybe this needs to be said: self-interest is not the way of Christ.

This sounds nice as an ideal but when practiced will be at the expense of one group or another because self interest is impossible to escape from. Do you think Christians alone are called to sacrifice themselves for the sake of non Christians who may do as they want? Let's use the Armenians as an example was it wrong for the Armenians to desire to live for themselves and not be genocided?

What would you tell the Armenians who resisted their deaths or who protected other Armenians? That they should die?

public hermit · Jul 25, 2025

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
This sounds nice as an ideal but when practiced will be at the expense of one group or another because self interest is impossible to escape from. Do you think Christians alone are called to sacrifice themselves for the sake of non Christians who may do as they want? Let's use the Armenians as an example was it wrong for the Armenians to desire to live for themselves and not be genocided?

What would you tell the Armenians who resisted their deaths or who protected other Armenians? That they should die?

"This sounds nice as an idea but when practiced ..." Then, for God's sake, let us practice it. Self-interest can't be the default because love is difficult.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Jul 25, 2025

public hermit said:
"This sounds nice as an idea but when practiced ..." Then, for God's sake, let us practice it. Self-interest can't be the default because love is difficult.

When the self interest of the Christian community clashes with the self interest of the non-Christian community does the Christian have to give way to the non-Christian in your view? For instance, it is in the interest of the Satanist to blaspheme and mock Christ, does Christian love call us to protect their right to blaspheme and mock Christ?

public hermit · Jul 25, 2025

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
When the self interest of the Christian community clashes with the self interest of the non-Christian community does the Christian have to give way to the non-Christian in your view? For instance, it is in the interest of the Satanist to blaspheme and mock Christ, does Christian love call us to protect their right to blaspheme and mock Christ?

God brings things into existence that did not exist and raises the dead, what do words or attitudes mean in that light? Do you think God's feelings are hurt? And why all the fear and panic? None of this makes sense in the light of faith.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Jul 25, 2025

public hermit said:
God brings things into existence that did not exist and raises the dead, what do words or attitudes mean in that light? Do you think God's feelings are hurt? And why all the fear and panic? None of this makes sense in the light of faith.

Alright so we as Christians are to defend blasphemy. Do you think Christians should supply Satanists with Eucharistic bread so that they might practice their religion to the fullest? Let's have another scenario. Let's say there are Muslims among us who want to have their polygamy recognized legally, do Christians have to defer to Muslims and recognize their marriages?

public hermit · Jul 25, 2025

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Alright so we as Christians are to defend blasphemy.

False equivalence, but I like your style.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Let's say there are Muslims among us who want to have their polygamy recognized legally, do Christians have to defer to Muslims and recognize their marriages?

That's your thought experiment? I'm sure in that scenario, Muslims and Christians living together, they could find a way to incorporate each other into some form of livable agreement. Look, Christians and Muslims did live together, translating and sharing ancients texts, for hundreds of years. It's not impossible, and it's a worthy pursuit. And if our conceptions of God can't allow us to live together in peace, then we need better conceptions of God.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Jul 25, 2025

public hermit said:
False equivalence, but I like your style.

But we are per your belief in this sort of love without self interest.

public hermit said:
That's your thought experiment? I'm sure in that scenario, Muslims and Christians living together, they could find a way to incorporate each other into some form of livable agreement. Look, Christians and Muslims did live together, translating and sharing ancients texts, for hundreds of years. It's not impossible, and it's a worthy pursuit. And if our conceptions of God can't allow us to live together in peace, then we need better conceptions of God.

So you think it was good Christians lived as Dhimmis under Islam? Do you approve of the Ottomans taking Greek boys and raising them as Muslims? I can't imagine you'd reject it because we as Christians exist for the sake of non Christians and they may do as they want to any one of us. To resist is more evil apparently.

public hermit · Jul 25, 2025

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
But we are per your belief in this sort of love without self interest.

Love without inordinate self-interest. We don't have to eliminate self-love; we just need proper self-love. Jesus does rise again, and he knows this beforehand. He knows his way of love will ensure that he will always live. If I seek to save myself, I will loose myself, but if I lose myself for the sake of Christ, I gain myself. That saying plays on our self-interest, but it is meant to get us out of self-interest. It's more a heuristic than anything else, but it is meant to be tried. A journey of a thousand miles begins with one step...Laozi.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
I can't imagine you'd reject it because we as Christians exist for the sake of non Christians.

Is that the chief goal of humanity? In our confession it's the glory and enjoyment of God. Whatever, the fact is we do live together and depend on each other so there are practical considerations. Would you agree that if we cannot love each other we should at least cooperate with each other, regardless of faith or creed? That's not asking too much from heathens, is it?

A New Dawn · Jul 25, 2025

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Are all Christians called to this subservient role? A Christian cannot be someone in power?

Christians can be whatever they want as long as they remember who gave them life and remember the teachings and commandments of that person.

My point in posting that was to remember and remind all of us that we are called to be servants, not to be served. Which is generally what happens once one is in office and gets a taste of power. It becomes addictive.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Jul 25, 2025

A New Dawn said:
Christians can be whatever they want as long as they remember who gave them life and remember the teachings and commandments of that person.

Well of course.

A New Dawn said:
My point in posting that was to remember and remind all of us that we are called to be servants, not to be served. Which is generally what happens once one is in office and gets a taste of power. It becomes addictive.

Hence why all Rulers need to be reminded that they ultimately serve God in the end. Christians never historically understood their service to reduce themselves to the positions of slaves, Dhimmis and Serbs inherently. Some were given authority to rule and guide by God. This shouldn't be controversial yet there are many here who would prefer Christians be Dhimmis and lack sovereignty.

Dismantling Judeo-Christian values in America

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