Discussion Thread for "The Orthodox Way" Chapter 1. God as Mystery

Akathist · Oct 31, 2004

Sorry it took so long to post this. I was very sick this last week with bronchitis and sinusitis. (I always get a "tis" instead of a regular cold.)

This thread is for the discussion of the first chapter of Kallistos Ware's book "The Orthodox Way". In this thread we will state what we like about the chapter, what we don't understand, what we disagree with. I am asking that only serious inquirers or Orthodox post here. (New inquirers who are reading the book may post, but we will not have debates here.)

Next week I will start a discussion on Chapter 2. You can continue to discuss Chapter One as long as there is an interest.

Akathist · Oct 31, 2004

I love the quote at the beginning by Evagrius of Pontus: "God cannot be grasped by the mind. If He could be grasped He would not be God."

I have been taught in Protestantism that God is Omnipotent (all powerful), Omniciant (spelling) (all knowing), Omnipresent (present everywhere). This teaching is similar in some ways to the approach Kallistos Ware is taking in this chapter at describing the "nondescribable".

I still find it amazing how Kallistos draws me to see the awsomeness of God. That is something I truely love about Orthodoxy... at Liturgy and Vespers I sense the presence of true "Majesty". I can almost imagine that we are transported from the here and now into the timelessness of the Kingdom as we worship the Trinity.

The distinction made in this chapter to the Nicean Creed's statement that we don't say "I believe there is a God" to "I believe in one God" was a bit more difficult for me to grasp. (see page 15 of the paperback version printed in 98.)

What do you make of this?

Wiffey · Oct 31, 2004

The Orthodox Way was one of the books that really got me excited about Orthodoxy. I read it shortly after my first back surgery in 2002. Then, after discussing it with my (then boyfriend now husband) sig. ot., I called the priest at a nearby parish and attended my first Divine Liturgy and the deal was sealed!
LOL The priest was not expecting to see me hobbling in with a cane & back brace! He was so kind. Liturgy blew me away! And don't get me started about my first Holy Week (cane/brace & all!) I loved it! Within a few months my daughter & I were Chrismated.

But I digress! I think Bishop Kallistos did a great job presenting the differences between East & West re: views on God's Mystery & unknowability. It was a big load off to realize I didn't have to figure everything out. The apophatic approach really drew me into a deeper, less over-intellectualized relationship with God. Does that make sense?
Wiffey

Theophorus · Oct 31, 2004

A priest described eternity as a constant movement towards the indescribable infinite God (the Father). That we are in his presence now, and will be, and for eternity always moving closer to him, but never reaching the deepest fathom of the unfathomable, so to speak.
It was a different perspective than the "i'll know everything about God when I get there" teaching I was accustomed to. It kind of opened up my eyes to the majesty of Jehovah, (can't help it, blame the ASV) and appreciate more His comming to us in the flesh.

(btw, I have not gotten the book yet but expect it soon. Then I will contribute on some of the passages, but until then, I'll try to add what I can)

Wiffey · Nov 1, 2004

Theophorus said:
A priest described eternity as a constant movement towards the indescribable infinite God (the Father). That we are in his presence now, and will be, and for eternity always moving closer to him, but never reaching the deepest fathom of the unfathomable, so to speak.

That is beautiful!

Wiffey

tizziale · Nov 1, 2004

I love the notion of the apophatic approach to God. This concept was familiar ony as a fleeting thought in Protestantism, but it's a focal point in Orthodoxy. God is paradoxical, yet knowable. What a wonderful way to look at the Mystery of God.

As for believing "that" versus believing "in". I heard a Protestant pastor once say something to this affect, "If I'm standing before an elevator, I can believe all day that it will take me up or down to my location. But until I get in the elevator, I'm not going anywhere."

rusty

Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta · Nov 20, 2004

Bump. I'm working on chapter 2 right now. Anyone still interested in discussing this book?

Dust and Ashes · Nov 21, 2004

Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta said:
Bump. I'm working on chapter 2 right now. Anyone still interested in discussing this book?

Absolutely! I just started chapter 3 and I've been sharing chapter 2 with Protestant friends as it is an easy and unthreatening way to share Orthodoxy with them by discussing the depth of the Holy Trinity.

Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta · Nov 21, 2004

This book is blowing my mind a bit. In chapter 2, when it talks about the Trinity having both diversity and unity, having 3 distinctions and yet unified in One. There has never been a time when the Son was separated from the Father, and yet Christ was begotten of the Father. This was confusing to me, so I asked about it. I was told that this is not a good word in some translations. To me, begotten implies someone was created from something. But I was told that the more accurate way to state this is that Christ was manifest from the Father before all ages, or something like that. Does this blow anyone else's mind?

Theophorus · Nov 21, 2004

Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta said:
This book is blowing my mind a bit. In chapter 2, when it talks about the Trinity having both diversity and unity, having 3 distinctions and yet unified in One. There has never been a time when the Son was separated from the Father, and yet Christ was begotten of the Father. This was confusing to me, so I asked about it. I was told that this is not a good word in some translations. To me, begotten implies someone was created from something. But I was told that the more accurate way to state this is that Christ was manifest from the Father before all ages, or something like that. Does this blow anyone else's mind?

This is the concept of the word, or Logos. I have heard it described not only as manifestation, but also as creator, in this manner;

The logos being the fulfillment, or manfestation of God, as in a word spoken, but also being the creator in that the Logos speaks utters the manifestation.

The word then is the expression of God, being transcendent as our own words are often of reality, though not without an impact on it, but also just as when God spoke and it was so, as with us, if the heart is true (good or bad) to what was spoken or conceived, then it brings forth a manifestation. If I write a poem, or a piece of music, or even contemplate etc. is it not an eternal expression, of which the art itself only partly manifests or puts into the context of time? It at once reveals the soul but is also a part of it. For what created it and the revelation of the creator are the same. This is why the promise of God being unchanging and faithful has so much significance.

Yes it blows my mind also, and the above is only a feeble attempt to put into words (no pun intended) something difficult to grab hold of, and what has been related to me. I hope I have done so faithfully.

Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta · Nov 22, 2004

Here's how it was explained to me, and I hope I tell it correctly. The Father is like a waterfall, the Son is the river/stream the water spills into, and the mist around the fountain is the Holy Spirit. Three separate elements, but united/connected as one by the waterfall. Of course, any metaphor which is examined too closely will have faults, but I thought this was a pretty good illustration.

Fotina · Nov 22, 2004

Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta said:
Here's how it was explained to me, and I hope I tell it correctly. The Father is like a waterfall, the Son is the river/stream the water spills into, and the mist around the fountain is the Holy Spirit. Three separate elements, but united/connected as one by the waterfall. Of course, any metaphor which is examined too closely will have faults, but I thought this was a pretty good illustration.

Another one I like, is Sun (Father), Lightbeams from sun (Son), and Warmth of sun (HS).

Father Daniel also gives a great explanation here:
http://www.pr.ru/emmaus/samples/Indonesi.pdf

Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta · Nov 24, 2004

I ran across an article on orthodoxinfo.com that slams this book (and Bp. Ware in general). I don't have the exact link at the moment, but this is just one more reason why I dislike that website. I will not reference it for anything in here anymore, nor will I recommend it to inquirers (lest they be infected with some of the garbage there). Yes, there are some good things there too, but an inquirer shouldn't have to exposed to a lot of the pro-Orthoduck crud there.

Oblio · Nov 24, 2004

I ran across an article on orthodoxinfo.com that slams this book (and Bp. Ware in general). I don't have the exact link at the moment, but this is just one more reason why I dislike that website.

Agreed. While there is much good info on OI, much of it is hypertrad screed against everyone who does not take their view on things, IMO they have an agenda, I'm just not quite sure what it is . It must be emphasized, and IIRC the site itself admits this, that they do not represent the view of the Church.

Akathist · Nov 26, 2004

I love the way Orthodox looks at the Trinity. I grew up being taught the the Trinity was three seperate and distinct entity's and I never understood that. It makes more sense to me to think of the Trinity being three in one essense but expressing the Godhead in their own ways.

What I am trying to understand is what "begotten" means. Any help.

also, are we ready for Chapter 2? I could start that if there is enough interest

MariaRegina · Nov 26, 2004

In my linguistics class, we are talking about Chomsky (the socialist, yeah, that guy from MIT).

Anyway, it's really surprising that Chomsky isn't Orthodox. He wrote an article, I recall, about Catholics and corresponded with Father Berrigan (the notorious peacenik of the 1960s).

However, I digress.

One thing that really inspires me --- and I have to use that word, is the way Chomsky says that OUR LANGUAGE IS INNATE. That we HUMANS WERE BORN TO TALK. That the WORD inside us is GENERATIVE.

And I keep thinking about the CREATIVE WORD OF GOD, JESUS CHRIST.

Is Chomsky preaching Christ without knowing it? How is it that we humans have an innate capacity to communicate with WORDS ... and that we can GENERATE AN INFINITE VARIETY OF SENTENCES. We have 46 phonemes in the English language ... and we can keep generating an infinite number of sentences, like fingerprints, that can be unique.

Isn't this awe-inspiring?

Do you see God the Word in this picture?

Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta · Nov 26, 2004

thornygrace said:
I love the way Orthodox looks at the Trinity. I grew up being taught the the Trinity was three seperate and distinct entity's and I never understood that. It makes more sense to me to think of the Trinity being three in one essense but expressing the Godhead in their own ways.

What I am trying to understand is what "begotten" means. Any help.

also, are we ready for Chapter 2? I could start that if there is enough interest

Thorny, I just asked that same question last Sunday. My question was worded as follows: If the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have always been One, then why does the Creed say "Begotten of the Father before all ages" when referring to Christ. To me, begotten means created or "born of..". The answer I received was that the word "begotten" in this case means "proceeds from." I wish I could remember more of what I was told, but my brain is pretty mushy right now. The confusing thing is that in OT geneology the word "begat" is used to refer to being born of someone in a physical way. Apparently the meaning is different in the Creed. Anyone else know more about this?

Discussion Thread for "The Orthodox Way" Chapter 1. God as Mystery

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