Discipleship Versus Numbers

[Keithrils]

I am in the late stages of receiving a degree in Youth Ministry, and through my years of study one question still arises: Is a youth ministry about the number of people it reaches or the depth in which it reaches people?

My former view on the question is that my purpose and calling was to be the vessel that God uses to bring as many people to Him as possible, to save as many lives as possible. As long as they believe in God, I am fulfilling my purpose. Thus, the more people I can bring to Him, the more adequately I am fulfilling my job. That means that while it was a numbers "game," it is a holy one at that. But that leaves all those people wondering, "Where do we go now?" That is an issue that I always tried to deal with in my own life - the spiritual roller coaster.

Because of my own personal ties to the issue, both from my past experience and the need to have an answer (not THE answer) in the future, I am very passionate about it. I decided to ask a couple different mentors of mine about their views on it, and here is a compilation I have formed of those answers, rendering one complete solution I now stand by:

As a youth pastor, I have the responsibility of numbers and discipleship. It doesn't have to be one or the other, and I don't have to single handedly take care of both. There are two different methods that can be implemented simultaneously - adult volunteers and student leaders. First, there is a volunteer team that I oversee. My responsibility is to disciple and equip these volunteers with knowledge, curriculum, and spiritual health. These volunteers then poor themselves into a select number of students each, whether it is one person or five. The goal here is to, over time, develop these students so fully that they would bring the numbers in themselves and be able to help disciple the newcomers. If one can develop some really great and spiritual student leaders to disciple newcomers, the ministry would become self-sustaining, in a sense.

What are your thoughts on the issue of Discipleship Versus Numbers?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I am in the late stages of receiving a degree in Youth Ministry, and through my years of study one question still arises: Is a youth ministry about the number of people it reaches or the depth in which it reaches people?

My former view on the question is that my purpose and calling was to be the vessel that God uses to bring as many people to Him as possible, to save as many lives as possible. As long as they believe in God, I am fulfilling my purpose. Thus, the more people I can bring to Him, the more adequately I am fulfilling my job. That means that while it was a numbers "game," it is a holy one at that. But that leaves all those people wondering, "Where do we go now?" That is an issue that I always tried to deal with in my own life - the spiritual roller coaster.

Because of my own personal ties to the issue, both from my past experience and the need to have an answer (not THE answer) in the future, I am very passionate about it. I decided to ask a couple different mentors of mine about their views on it, and here is a compilation I have formed of those answers, rendering one complete solution I now stand by:

As a youth pastor, I have the responsibility of numbers and discipleship. It doesn't have to be one or the other, and I don't have to single handedly take care of both. There are two different methods that can be implemented simultaneously - adult volunteers and student leaders. First, there is a volunteer team that I oversee. My responsibility is to disciple and equip these volunteers with knowledge, curriculum, and spiritual health. These volunteers then poor themselves into a select number of students each, whether it is one person or five. The goal here is to, over time, develop these students so fully that they would bring the numbers in themselves and be able to help disciple the newcomers. If one can develop some really great and spiritual student leaders to disciple newcomers, the ministry would become self-sustaining, in a sense.

What are your thoughts on the issue of Discipleship Versus Numbers?

Hi Kiethrils; and welcome to Christian Forums

,

You pose difficult questions that not only those who work with youth in the Church, but the whole Church should be asking itself.

True Discipleship, as far as our Lord is concerned, is why He instituted the Church.

Throughout our Lord's ministry He reached thousands; yet on Good Friday only a few stood at the foot of the cross.

To understand what our Lord expects of His Church we would all do well to revisit the Seven Letters to the Seven Churches in The Revelation of St. John. It is interesting to note that of those Seven Churches; six of those received admonitions from our Lord in their letters. Only the Church at Smyrna did not. The Church at Smyrna is the only one of those seven that remains to this day.

When "numbers" become the end rather than the means, then we are doing a great disservice to the Holy Spirit.

If you keep these things in mind you may not always be able to satisfy those who hold a full Church as their only measure of success; however by fully submitting to our Lord's will, the Holy Spirit will continue to build the Church. Remember always that our Lord through the power of the Holy Spirit builds the Church; that's His job! Our job is only to submit to the Holy Spirit so that our Lord can use the gifts and talents that He has given us to bring disciples to himself.

May God bless you in your calling!

Mark

 

[Keithrils]

Hi Kiethrils; and welcome to Christian Forums

,

You pose difficult questions that not only those who work with youth in the Church, but the whole Church should be asking itself.

True Discipleship, as far as our Lord is concerned, is why He instituted the Church.

Throughout our Lord's ministry He reached thousands; yet on Good Friday only a few stood at the foot of the cross.

To understand what our Lord expects of His Church we would all do well to revisit the Seven Letters to the Seven Churches in The Revelation of St. John. It is interesting to note that of those Seven Churches; six of those received admonitions from our Lord in their letters. Only the Church at Smyrna did not. The Church at Smyrna is the only one of those seven that remains to this day.

When "numbers" become the end rather than the means, then we are doing a great disservice to the Holy Spirit.

If you keep these things in mind you may not always be able to satisfy those who hold a full Church as their only measure of success; however by fully submitting to our Lord's will, the Holy Spirit will continue to build the Church. Remember always that our Lord through the power of the Holy Spirit builds the Church; that's His job! Our job is only to submit to the Holy Spirit so that our Lord can use the gifts and talents that He has given us to bring disciples to himself.

May God bless you in your calling!

Mark

Thank you for your response, Mark! But, can you explain to me further what your intentions were about the Seven letters to the Seven Churches? I read them all and I find that for the church in Smyrna God still offers admonition - Rev. 2:10.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

The letters to the 7 Churches are very relevant to the Church today. Not only does our Lord tell us what we must reject, but He also tells us what is right and good.

Regarding the Church at Smyrna; in particular the verse you referenced 2:10: I do not see this as an admonition, but as prophesy. Our Lord is telling them that they will face persecution (as Christianity is facing today) and encouraging them to stay the course and have no fear of what they may have to endure.

Interesting to note that St. Polycarp, who was a disciple of St. John The Evangelist, was Bishop of that Church, and was martyred for his faith under Roman persecution on Feb. 23 155 or 156 a.d. An eye witness account of his death recorded that when told to deny his faith or face death he stated that he could not as "I have held this faith for 86 years". St. Polycarp would have been present when this letter was read in his Church. Also interesting to note... his statement leads us to believe that the Church in Smyrna was practicing infant baptism... as they still do as part of the Eastern Orthodox Communion.

The Church at Smyrna; and St. Polycarp have a special place in my heart. As a very orthodox and catholic Lutheran I am a member of the Sociatas Sancti Policarpi (Society of St. Polycarp). We members of the SSP have dedicated ourselves to upholding the Historic Christian faith. If you are interested here is a link to our orders rule: Society of Saint Polycarp: The Rule of the Society of St. Polycarp

Sola Gloria Deo,

Mark SSP.

 

[beforHim]

Let's get philosophical.


There are two different "places" or "realms" in which reality takes place. These are the finite and the infinite, temporal and eternal, timebound and timeless. OK, what in the world does this have to do with your question?

Just getting as many people as possible saved (aka numbers") is on the side of infinitie, eternal, timeless. I mean, get them in the door, and know matter how far they backslide, or how far they don't move (meaning there's not even any room for backsliding)- hey, as long as they're in the doors, then they're with God. God will put them through the fire, work out the dross, etc.. We (not us but Christ in us) got them saved and they're now with God for eternity.

B U T

Why in the world, then, if that's all God was worried about, did He create this universe and life for us to go through? This is were the finite, temporal, timebound comes into play. Obviously God wants us to be here and do things which require work and therefore sequential order (and therefore time!). I'm guessing he wants us to have genuine experience, to actually experience the working of salvation and His love. In any case, no matter what the reason God decided not just to do the eternal thing, but also the temporal thing, we know He did it, and obviously He wants us to use it (or else the best weapon against apostasy [if perseveance of the saints is not true] would be to just get a confession, and then kill 'em).

So God has two "orders" (if you will). He wants us to recognize and work in both of them. That being said, I agree with your youth pastor mentors. It doesn't have to be one or the other, nor should it. GFA (Gospel for Asia) used to do strictly missionary work, period. No social gospel at all. I mean, it's more important getting men into heaven than making them happy on earth, right? Well, as they prayed and prayed (corporate prayer and fasting because thy were not getting many converts), they had "revelations" of digging wells, feeding people, sponsoring kids, etc. They were vehemnetly against it, but once they finally "let go and let God"- now they get more people saved (again, not them but Christ within them) in one day then America gets in a year of Billy Grahams and Acquire ther Fires and promise Keepers- and better yet (or maybe we should say "and the reason why): these people actually "stay" saved at a much greater rate. (stay could be a bad word theologicaly, but you get what I mean).

So yeah, don't do the protestant thing- a dichotomy between the eternal and the temporal, then cast away the temporal (as Martin Luther himself said, don't fall into either ditch). It's very hard, but you must think and minister both eternal and temporal simultaneously. God is big, and He'll get us through it.