Disapointed

[Polycarp]

I began studying the Patristic writings and Scripture in an attempt to refute what Fr. Rob was doing, and saying.  I felt that if I could prove that Scripture and the Ante-Nicene fathers did not believe as he did, that I could possibly bring him back to Rome.

What began to happen was quite the opposite.  I began to question teachings that I had always held.  I could not reconcile certain teachings of the Roman Catholic Church with what I was finding in the Ante-Nicene writings and Scripture.

Amy and I were talking about them one evening and she recommended CF - specifically One Bread.  I decided to give it a try - this was my first online community.  My first thread was on the Apostolic Faith.  Very few people posted there.  I began to look around and post in other places - but what began to happen was not expected.

I found that the answers that were being given where generally done in a very aggressive manor and did not address the issue at hand.  Most discussions drifted into defining "catholic."

The thread where everyone pats each other on the back for their "apologetic" skills rather disturbed me.  Amy and I were beat down, not lifted up.  We were discouraged, not re-affirmed.  I began my questioning on a theological basis but now I question the people.

CF has not been a help to me.  I was reaching out in an attempt to have my questions answered, but they were not.  I was a brother Roman Catholic, who was unsettled, and you pushed me over the edge.

Despite the rather disgusting display by patriarch, Avila and I will not be run off.  I will ask my questions, and we will discuss them.  The questions are tough by nature.  I will be citing Ante-Nicene writings and Scripture.  I will be looking for resolution to issues.  Why be afraid of these discussions.  They will give you an opportunity to prove your apologetical skills.

 

[ZiSunka]

Bravo polycarp! So many people have been leaving CF this last week I was afraid that no one would be left.

Thanks to you and Avila for staying.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Ok...so what are the issues?

 

[KC Catholic]

Poly -

I understand your feelings and we have talked privately many times about where you are at.

I sorry if you feel the folks here who do apologetics work aren't doing a very good job or that you felt we've been aggressive in our answers. But one thing you have to keep in mind is that dealing with anti-Catholic comments from Protestants is a difficult task at best. The job is even harder when its one of our own who has decided to leave the church.

It's easier when we can see it's a misunderstanding of the facts by a Protestant, when its one of our own (either fallen away Catholic, cradle Catholic who left the church 10+ years ago, or someone who is bright and can understand what we are saying) when it's one of our own ~it's painful.

I am assuming that your post is in response to the new forum guidelines. Fr. Rob had been pushing for some time for us to define the discussions in this forum and we finally decided it was time to clarify the position taken in discussions here.

You, Avila and Fr. Rob are more than welcome to stay. You can ask any question you want - but the rules are there and we will ensure that we don't drift into the choppy waters this forum has experience in recent weeks.

As always, we can discuss things in private, but I want to address your statements in public.

Peace be with you,
KC.

 

[VOW]

To Poly:

I echo KC's sentiments, that we are heartbroken at the thought of "losing one of our own." The fact that you STILL have questions about your recent discoveries, and that you are drawn to this forum despite the communication problems we've been having, well, I have to say, I do take heart in it.

I know you have an extensive background of study, that you have learned "at the knee of the Church" and this is what you draw from when you encounter the contradictions posed by Fr Rob. However, it's my observation that we can never really know enough, there's always someone smarter out there. Have you thought about taking these concerns to one of your professors under whom you studied?

Another observation I make from my "old age" standpoint is that there's nothing new under the sun. Whatever problems Fr Rob feels he's "uncovered" in the Catholic faith have been addressed before, probably many, many times. I feel the answers you seek are in the Church. Instead of duking it out here on an internet message board with "civilians," I encourage you to take them to the Church.

One apologetics battle I "fought" with a dear friend over the Catholic Church went something like this: he started with the typical arguments about Church corruption and abuses through the ages. I agreed, yes, the Catholic Church definitely has a past of regrettable actions. But She still STANDS today. I can understand why some feel called to break away, to wash off the "stains" of the past, to return to the "pure teachings." But is an imitation ever as good as the original? In my book, no.

Our discussion continued along that line of thinking. I compared the Catholic Church to a huge castle. It's been around for a long time, and it's got plumbing problems, there's a few holes in the roof, some of the rooms need painting. I compared the break-away non-Catholic Christian faiths to different dwellings NEXT to the castle. People didn't like the repairs that needed to be done, so they moved out and built their own homes. Some are big and fancy, some are very makeshift. But NONE of the newer ones have the same size, grandeur, and history that the castle does. They don't even come close.

I told my friend: you can stay in the castle and be one of the folks who rolls up his sleeves and helps with the repairs, or you can move out to one of the other "imitation" homes. And some of the "imitations" are quite nice. Even the makeshift ones keep the rain off your head.

But the castle has a moat, and many more rooms, and libraries, and stained glass windows, and artwork, and places just waiting to be discovered. And despite the repair work that needs doing, it is more than adequate to keep the rain off your head as well.

Of course, if you stand right underneath one of the holes in the roof, it's hard to picture the other qualities.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[KC Catholic]

I heard an interesting comment the other day and I can't remember who said it or where I saw it....but none the less, it was very interesting...

People who complain about the past errors or transgressions of the Catholic Church are failing to realize that those errors and trangressions are in our past as well (Catholic and non-Catholic alike). Even if you are NOT Catholic now, all of our ancestory can be traced back to the Catholic Church via the routes of the Reformation. Because it is Christian history...not just "Catholic" history.

Eventhough we are separated now, we share the same past, which includes the historical errors or transgressions of the Catholic Church. We cannot run from them and we cannot deny that they are part of our past. But we can learn from the past and be an active part the Church's present and future.

What is in the past, is in the past. The promise of Christ remains that the "Gates of Hell" will not prevail against his church, and it hasn't. Through all the turmoil, through all the Popes who did bad things, through every crisis - The Holy Spirit continues to lead, protect and love the church. If Christ's promise is not good enough, not iron clad enough to protect the Catholic Church, then our salvation is in deep trouble.

But I believe Christ and his every word. Something to consider.

 

[Thunderchild]

Even if you are NOT Catholic now, all of our ancestory can be traced back to the Catholic Church via the routes of the Reformation. Because it is Christian history...not just "Catholic" history.

For some, this statement doesn't hold true. Nonetheless, it is a point well worth remembering. Sort of along the lines of what Jesus had to say about the Pharisees and Saducees who claimed that .... rats, I'll have to look up the quote... Oh, there are two of them


Luk 11:47-48 Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres.

Mat 23:28 - 32 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

Perhaps it is that the best example today is that of the conflict between the IRA and the UDA

 

[patriarch]

CF has not been a help to me. I was reaching out in an attempt to have my questions answered, but they were not. I was a brother Roman Catholic, who was unsettled, and you pushed me over the edge.

Look, I am sorry Polycarp, but in these areas no one gets pushed over the edge. It is ever and always a question of choice, to believe or not to believe. No one gets pushed over the edge. You jump or don't jump. Everyone is on his own responsibility, including you.

Patriarch

 

[nyj]

Originally posted by patriarch
Look, I am sorry Polycarp, but in these areas no one gets pushed over the edge. It is ever and always a question of choice, to believe or not to believe. No one gets pushed over the edge. You jump or don't jump. Everyone is on his own responsibility, including you.

Patriarch

 

I concur.  If you are going to base the single greatest decision of YOUR life (not to mention eternity) based on the actions of others... well... enough said.

 

[KC Catholic]

As requested by Polycarp, closing this thread.

Peace.