Different God? Where does this come from?

YatzivPatgam · Mar 17, 2004

simchat_torah said:
Well, the answer to this question depends on who you ask.

Christians will tell you that yes, they worship the same G-d (at least most will). They say the messiah was the fulfillment of the same religion, etc.

Jews will tell you that no, they do not worship the same G-d (at least most will). They say that G-d can not come in the form of a man, that christianity is not monotheistic, Judaism does not bow to paganism as christinaity does, etc.

Messianics will typically fall anywhere between those two answers. Some Messianics will lean strongly towards one direction or the other. But there is no general consensus that you can refer to.

I hope this helps.

Shalom!
yafet

BS'D

Shalom Chaver,

I would think the Orthodox mindset is, you worship HaShem', but your theology is not for Jews and is a bit off the track but all in all, it's better then say, Hinduism.

Keep on worshipin

We'll settle those diffrences over manashveitz and a bowl of soup.

Dominus Fidelis · Mar 17, 2004

seebs said:
I am frequently told that Jews do not worship the same God Christians do.

It seems to me the best way to learn about this would be to ask the Messianic Jews.

My understanding has always been that the dispute between Jews and Christians is on the nature of God, but that there is no doubt as to the identity of God. Everyone agrees that we are discussing the Creator of all things seen and unseen. Everyone agrees that we are discussing the one who made a covenant with Abraham, and guided Moses in leading the Hebrews out of Egypt.

So... How could they be different? Am I missing something? I would very much appreciate insights from the Messianic Jews, who are presumably the best qualified to speak on the boundaries between the faiths.

Of course the Jews worship the same God as the Christians.

Now here is the interesting part. I asked in this forum if the Muslims also worship the same God and everyone here was adamant that they do NOT worship the same God, even though they profess faith in the God of Abraham.

Using your logic seebs, which I find to be sound, aren't the MJ here just as guilty as the Protestants for claiming Muslims don't worship the God of Abraham...just because they dont understand God's true nature (nor do Orthodox Jews) does not mean they worship some other God.

Maybe there is enough human pride to go around for all groups?

Henaynei · Mar 17, 2004

Islam is a crazy quilt of half understood and half misunderstood concepts from the T'NaKah, the Brit Chadasha and early roman Christanity, mixed liberally with arabic pagan religion and presented to the world "by or through" a man with known mental "challenges" as the "most recent and complete expression of god" - the Quran. The god Allah was well known as the god of the moon long before Mohammad left his cave. A god who's grace one can only earn, and that best by killing those who don't follow him is NOT the G-d of the Bible - Jewish or Christian

Dominus Fidelis · Mar 17, 2004

I've seen countless accusations of Christianity having pagan elements in this very forum. Why are we not said to worship a different God?

ShirChadash · Mar 17, 2004

It's interesting DOF, in light of all that members of this forum seem to be fielding in terms of attack lately, that you would waltz in here and accuse us of the same sin as our accusers, becuase we say that a "god" who tells his followers to KILL THE PEOPLE OF THE One True G-d is not the same as our One True G-d by any means. I suggest you re-read your thread on Islam andrefresh your memory with the HUMBLE replies therein.

The comments regarding the Jews in the PRE thread are not quite the same as the comments in the Islam thread you posted DOF. As far as I can see, in looking back through the Islam thread, the comments regarding Islam were stated fairly gently and humbly. But the arrogance and pride with which the PRE thread was discussed is incredible. Some of the comments:

they are worshipping THEIR IDEA of God, the way He expressed Himself in the Old Covanent. (did G-d change?)

It just means that unless one worships the God of the ENTIRE Bible, one worships a different god. (that One True G-d is revealed in entirety in the entire TaNaKh -- old testament -- Catholics say so all the time, BTW... remember? One doesn't need the Bible to bring the Gospel to folks, after all before the New Testament was compiled all people had was the OLD TESTAMENT and yet people managed to hear the Truth and be saved nonetheless).

The TRUE God is God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. (Again, though we do not see those terms used specifically in the TaNaKh, the fact of the matter is that both Yeshua and the Spirit of G-d are very clearly represented in the TaNaKh and were easily seen and argued from the TaNaKh as well.)

It is one thing to not know of one of God's attributes, it is an entirely different thing to reject one of His attributes. (Romans 11:1-32 1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew... . 7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written: "God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day."... 10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, And bow down their back always." F56 11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! ... 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. ... 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, F58 as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins." F59 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. Every SINGLE Jew -- no less than anyone else, and probably even moreso -- will have an opportunity to see 100% CLEARLY with NO hindering differences in interpretation and teaching, no longer blinded whatsoever, WHO YESHUA HaMoshiach IS, and be given the chance to then choose Him when they FULLY SEE HIM. For now, the majority remain blinded due to the ONE TRUE G-D's merciful desire to graft in we who NEVER knew Him before and never belonged before.)

The Holy Trinity is Three Persons, not a way of describing the nature of God.
Abraham most certainly worshiped the Holy Trinity, c.f. Gen 18 (and yet, show me where Abraham said that he understood G-d to have three individual persons, knew Yeshua's personal name, and knew the Spirit of G-d to be a separate entity from YHVH? He didn't -- just like the Jews don't recognize it today -- BUT HE still worshiped the One True G-d, YHVH Elohim Abba, Yeshua and Ruach. Yep. So do they -- they call upon Yeshua every single day... they don't know the name to be a formal, personal name. Do we understand the ins and outs of G-d completely? Does G-d tell us that unless we understand the ins and outs of every single aspect of His personhood, we cannot say we know Him and He refuses to hear us when we call on Him? Do you answer when your wife calls you "Hunny?")

The Bible is VERY clear about the difference between those who feel they are justified by the law, the Jews, and those who look to the mercy of God through the work of Jesus as their salvation. (Yes, it is. And when it discusses the JEWS who have a covenant relationship with our Abba as His firstborn, the Bible is clear that it is G-D Who has blinded the Jews as a whole to the truth of Yeshua as Messiah. Am i to believe that our JUST and HOLY G-D would put the Jews at a disadvantage to seeing the ruth of His Messiah for a time, and then discount and punish them with eternal damnation for not seeing it RIGHT NOW? No the Word is very clear. All Jews ALLLLLLLLLL JEWS will have the opportunity to see clearly -- without the hindrance of the "Jesus" gentiles have made the Jewish Messiah into, having attributes utterly foreign in our understanding of Him... and without the blinders G-d Himself has placed over their eyes -- they will SEE HIM clearly in G-d's own time and be given the choice then -- free and clear and unhindered, the choice to choose Him as their Messiah or not. Of WHAT other people group can it be said that GOD HIMSELF blinded them to the truth of their OWN Messiah for this time, so that WE may be grafted into His family? Jews are at a TREMENDOUS disadvantage to seeing Yeshua as Messiah -- that NO ONE ELSE on earth is disadvantaged with -- and yet, more and more Jews see the truth every day as G-d is opening their eyes and removing the blindness from individuals. HIS Ways with HIS people are NOT our place to JUDGE and strut over.)

Did the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob include the Son? (Once again, yessiree bobby. He is known as "The MEMRA". If it matters what NAME You call Him, then the sacred namers are right and none of us are getting anywhere unless we all specifically call on the name YAHUSHUAH or whatever, with the right spelling and all. )

when i said their own "idea" i didnt mean to say that the OT God what thought up by men... i meant to say that their idea of God NOW is the PARTLY ReVEALED God of the OT - and God is no longer now PARTLY revealed, He is MUCH MORE revealed. (not to most Jews He isn't -- and that is, again, by G-D'S OWN DOING. Try reading Romans and paying attention to the portions discussing the Jews and their relationship to the Father).

and yeah, i pretty much believe that the Old Covanent was fulfilled - not abolished, but the terms met, and no longer used, as a NEW Covanent was written up. not destroyed without the covanent being met. it was met, fulfilled, completed, and thus no longer binding.
("Fulfilled" is best translated "correctly interpreted", and therefore ratified, not ended. It is a fact of gentile misunderstanding of the Word: He said fulfilled in the Jewish sense -- He accurately interpreted Torah. Go through and read every single sentance spoken by Yeshua in the Gospels. The vast majority of His comments are TEACHING in nature. And what was He teaching on? The Torah. Why? He was interpreting it correctly and returning the appropriate understanding of specific laws to his followers.)

yeah, there are record numbers of africans and mexicans and lithuanians and chinese and jewish and tibetans etc. coming to christ. there are people of all the nations coming to Christ. there is now no Jew/Gentile differentiation, according to the bible. they are ppl who find Christ. all of them. none of them more "special" then another.
(G-d has a different view than this. If Jews and gentiles re on equal footing, then why are the Jews as a people blinded by G-D Himself so that we gentiles can come into the family? Hmph -- what other people group is specifically blinded by G-d to seeing His Messiah? Yeah -- the Jews are special, and it is an incredible burden as well as a blessing. It is only through Abba lifting that veil from their eyes that they see Yeshua -- and yet we have the audacity to disdain them for the fact that most of them do not yet see Him. Do you people have ANY idea how you are grieving the Spirit????)

OH well -- I suppose it's futile to bring these things up but I'm going to post anyway. Muslims? Yeah -- they worship another god -- any god who would tell them to kill and hate and destroy and revile and wipe from the face of the earth the very children of the One True G-d -- yep that's another god. But then again, I suppose those "christians" who committed atrocities against Jews and even other christians throughout history prolly worshipped the same G-d as we do, since they called themselves christians. huh. surely no one would want to claim they were true christians, like the rest of us. Hm.

iitb · Mar 17, 2004

Okay, it is one thing to discuss another's religious beliefs in a forum where they can't debate, and another to discuss specific comments in a forum where they can't defend themselves. As those from other forums can attest, this is the quickest way to disrupt the harmony around here. Let's please stick to the original question, and not dig up stuff from other forums.

ShirChadash · Mar 17, 2004

My apologies Justin. Feel free to poof the post ^ up there or I'll edit if you like. I am trying to show that the nature of the comments were not remotely similar between the two threads, as DOF was making a comparison. And the Muslim and the Jews are not remotely the same people group, either. Nonetheless...

P_G · Mar 17, 2004

Zemirah said:
OH well -- I suppose it's futile to bring these things up but I'm going to post anyway. Muslims? Yeah -- they worship another god -- any god who would tell them to kill and hate and destroy and revile and wipe from the face of the earth the very children of the One True G-d -- yep that's another god.

I think his name is Molech or Baal.

Big Hug sis

Pastor George

schwartmrs · Mar 17, 2004

According to the Encyclopedia of Religions, Allah is an alternative name for Baal.

This pretty much settled the issue for me. Read your Bible. Baal has always tried to be God, but God has an extremely different point of view.

Shade

P_G · Mar 17, 2004

The Thadman said:
Truly! That's motto to live by

(And with that in mind, mind if I "steal" it? )

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

Sure you can Steve but first the story behind it

One of the stated purpouses for Nehemiah Center is to offer a place of refuge for those who are in need and recovering from drugs or alcohol. We took in a girl a Jewess by the name of Sarah. Pretty girl who had cirosis of the liver pretty bad.

She informed me that she wanted to keep Shabos and wanted a siddur to davin with. So I set out for a Judiaca to get a nice Siddur for her. I ended up in my travels in Monsey, NY. Now for those of you who do not know Monsey has one of the largest Chasidic populations on the east coast. And into the Judiaca I went. Umm looking VERY Goim.

Well I was surely getting a lot of stares there and I think maybe making people a little uncomforatable. But the shop keeper was very nice to me and I told him who and what I was. And he looked quite astounded and asked me why would I take care of a child of Israel like she was one of mine and see to her spirtual health also?

And that was when I said
If one wants to be a good Christian one must first be a good Jew.

You know I made some friends that day.

Love

Pastor George

Mordechai18 · Mar 17, 2004

Nehemiah_Center said:
We took in a girl a Jewess by the name of Sarah. Pretty girl

Pastor George, I have read your comments here and appreciate your love for Judaism and Torah, and I know you meant no offense -
but I must tell you that the word "Jewess" is about as respectful as the word "Negress."

I know you don't mean any offense, and neither do I. But it's a word that hasn't been used kindly through history.

b'Shalom

Henaynei · Mar 17, 2004

Mordechai18 said:
Pastor George, I have read your comments here and appreciate your love for Judaism and Torah, and I know you meant no offense -
but I must tell you that the word "Jewess" is about as respectful as the word "Negress."

I know you don't mean any offense, and neither do I. But it's a word that hasn't been used kindly through history.

b'Shalom

Both nicely and gently said, Mordy - Mazel Tov!!

One of the things I learned early on in my sojourn with Israel is that using Jew and Jewess was something that could wound or create distance - What did I know?? I'd never been around any virilant anti-semitisim - but someone gently took me aside and explained it to me, too So I learned to say Jewish man or Jewish girl etc - my longest journey bagan with very small steps

ShirChadash · Mar 17, 2004

Eeeek I am so glad you folks mentioned this. It never occured to me that it could be offensive to use either term! Todah Rabah (this is thank you very much, yes?).

Mordechai18 · Mar 17, 2004

schwartmrs said:
According to the Encyclopedia of Religions, Allah is an alternative name for Baal.

This pretty much settled the issue for me. Read your Bible. Baal has always tried to be God, but God has an extremely different point of view.

Shade

When discussing words such as this, it is easy to go astry.
Remember that in modern Hebrew today, "Ba'al" is the word for "husband." And a Jew who returns to the Observant life is called a "Ba'al T'shuvah" which means "Master of repentance."

Likewise, the word "Allah" is also used by Arab-speaking Christians to refer to the G-d of the Bible. It is related to the Hebrew names for G-d - "Eloah" and "Elohim."

seebs · Mar 17, 2004

I may be very confused, but my understanding is that Allah is pretty much equivalent to the english word "god", and becomes a reference to a specific entity only through intent or further clarification.

Mordechai18 · Mar 17, 2004

seebs said:
I may be very confused, but my understanding is that Allah is pretty much equivalent to the english word "god", and becomes a reference to a specific entity only through intent or further clarification.

My point precisely.

seebs · Mar 17, 2004

Mordechai18 said:
My point precisely.

An interesting point.

I have generally assumed that everyone who claims to be talking about the Creator of all things is probably talking about the same entity, but that most of them are very, very, very confused about that entity's nature. However, I put this in the category of people who hold false beliefs about other people; "Oh, yeah, seebs talks that way because he's British". Actually, I'm not, but that doesn't mean they're not talking about me, it just means they don't know me very well.

Mordechai18 · Mar 17, 2004

seebs said:
I have generally assumed that everyone who claims to be talking about the Creator of all things is probably talking about the same entity

I don't generally believe that. But I do believe it in the case of Jews, Christians, and Muslims.
I believe that these three theologies have the same starting reference point in a way that other faiths may not. Just my two cents.

The Thadman · Mar 17, 2004

seebs said:
I may be very confused, but my understanding is that Allah is pretty much equivalent to the english word "god", and becomes a reference to a specific entity only through intent or further clarification.

"Allah" has -become- the normal Arabic word for "god," but in reality means "the god." It is a shortened version of "Al-Illah," and "Illah" is the "original" word for "god" in Arabic.

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

ILY · Mar 17, 2004

Shalom all,
Mordechai18,
How are you?I pray all is well with you and yours.

Seebs I see by your sig. you must be a Metallica fan. (Outlaw Torn)

Ok now back to the topic.

Here's a relevant bit of verses

Act 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, [Ye] men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.

Act 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Act 17:32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this [matter].

Act 17:33 So Paul departed from among them.

Act 17:34 Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which [was] Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.

Shalom v shalom
ILY <><

Different God? Where does this come from?

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