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difference between Christians

Patdoggydogg

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Hey, I am a "confused" Christian, i guess would be the term...but i am wondering what exactly is the difference between catholics, and Prodastents( way misspelled i bet haha). I mean, i know that Prod.'s believe in the 10 commandments, and whatnot, and catholics believe in being a Good person will get you into heaven (whichi is what i think, yet i also think that following the commandments is good too) Can someone help me out plz? Thanks...
PM me if you want, or just use this thread...get a discussion goin :)



~No lie, just know I, chose my own fait, I drove by the fork in the road and went straight~
 

MoonlessNight

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Patdoggydogg said:
Hey, I am a "confused" Christian, i guess would be the term...but i am wondering what exactly is the difference between catholics, and Prodastents( way misspelled i bet haha). I mean, i know that Prod.'s believe in the 10 commandments, and whatnot, and catholics believe in being a Good person will get you into heaven (whichi is what i think, yet i also think that following the commandments is good too) Can someone help me out plz? Thanks...
PM me if you want, or just use this thread...get a discussion goin :)



~No lie, just know I, chose my own fait, I drove by the fork in the road and went straight~
Just like to mention that the Catholics follow the ten commandments as well (though they do number them differently. It's really the same set of commands in both the Protestant and Catholic way of numbering the ten commandments, just different divisions.)

As was mentioned authority is a big difference. Catholics (and Orthodox religions) will accept authority outside the Bible (such as tradition, or the authority of the church (ultimately the Pope in the Catholic case)). Protestant religions usually only accept the authority of the Bible.

It's hard to classify Protestant religions in one sweep, because the only thing that truly unites them (besides what unites Christians in general) is breaking away from the Catholic church (and not even that since Orthodox religions usually aren't considered Protestant).
 
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Magisterium

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Well, hopefully without sparking a big fight, Christianity is not just a bunch of people trying to figure out the scriptures which fell out of the sky.

The Roman Catholic Church actually has it's roots in Jerusalem before the Jewish war in 66ad. Before this time, Jewish Christians lived in relative communion with Jews. However, after this failed revolt, the Christians retreated to Pella (A city across the Jordan) After the commotion settled, The Christians (needless to say) were no longer welcome in what was left of Jerusalem.
Eventually, (within the next 10 years or so) Christianity found it's home in Rome. Initial fierce persecutions continued until about 311AD when Constantine came into power. With the new freedom from persecution, the church grew and became more integrated with Roman civilization. This opened the door to many modes of heretical thought. Namely Gnosticism, Pelagianism, Donatism, and the ever popular Arianism. At any rate, mot of these modes of thought were based upon incorrect suppositions of the natures of God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Mind you that all this time, though the Gospels have been written (along with countless other writings, there is no defined canon of scripture(no Bible). However, the councils of Nicea, Constantinople, and Chalcedon eventually develop the understanding of the trinity and put the early heresies to bed. Additionally in that time period, at the synods of Hippo, and Carthage (393-397AD), the scriptural canon were set forth (with much debate). So nowaround the year 500, the church is doing ok and scripture is set, and Rome Falls! Uh oh....
Well the invading germanic tribes (Goths, Franks, Algles, and Saxons to name a few) are layin' the smack down on what's left of the Roman armies. However, the Germanic peoples were largely pagan in belief (except the Goths who were Arian) and tribal in civilization. The winning of the roman territory resulted in a situation which was alot like trying to play checkers on a chess board with chess pieces.
Naturally, the socially infused church was looked to for governance which blurred the line between church and state and led to much curruption in the church at this time and for centuries to come. The tribal nature of the invaders led to a splitting up of the roman territories. In the centuries to come, this would come to lead to feudalism...

Well, a few more centuries later, a man named Mohammed is born to a middle eastern merchant. Convinced that he is a prophet, he brings his prophecy to the church where it is rejected on many accounts. Needless to say, he wasn't too happy. He goes off and starts his own religion which is now called Islam (I guess you could call him the first protestant):sorry: . ok, bad Joke, sorry... At any rate, Mohammed and his followers grew quickly in North Africa where Donatism was still floundering. At any rate, Islam spread like lice through a Wig Shop (That's mine but you can use it) and soon began taking Christian territory by force. Enter the infamous "crusades". (No, Billy Graham didn't lead this charge) The crusades were originally a Church led recapture of the Holy land from the Muslims and later, after initial success there would be six more which would eventually prove to be unjustly motivated (at least partially) and one (the fourth) resulted in the sack and pillage of Constantinople (the seat of the eastern church) and the establishment of a latin (Western) heirarchy there. This offence would prove later to be instrumental in the separation of the "Eastern Orthodoxies" from the Roman Catholic Church. There would eventually be six official Crusades in all not counting a tragic "children's crusade" in the year 1212.
Moving on, in the centuries to come, the Church would come to withstand more schism, corruption, and still manage to found the first "universities" which would later develop into whay we know know as higher education. As well, the moral guidance of the church kept the lid on feudalism (to some extent). Now we skip ahead a few hundred more years to the protestant reformation.

Now mind you, up until now, the church has had it's tyrants and saints. The clergy in certain parts of the world are certainly currupt and doing many things which were not in keeping with church teaching. However, through it all, the church has been faithful to Christ's prayer in Jn 17:20-21
20 "I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,
21 so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. (Emphasis added)
and the Apostle Paul's admonition in 1 Cor 1:10,12-13 about the church's oneness.
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing and that there be no schisms among you: but that you be perfect in the same mind and in the same judgment…
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith: I indeed am of Paul; and I am of Apollo; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul then crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

However, Along comes Luther who is utterly discusted with the abuses in the church in his time and place (and rightfully so). However, Luther does something unthinkable. Luther departs from the Church and effectively starts his own. To support this "move" he asserts that the sacred writings of Scripture are Authoritative apart from the authority of the universal church. Ironically, he then (almost immediately) alters the canon of scripture and re-words certain passages to suit his doctrines. Seems to fly in the face of what he preached.

Needless to say, this new "group" of believers were originally called the "protesters" by the church. Time for a council? I'd say it's high time!. Enter the Council of Trent. With this council, many abuses were put down but many of Luther's other Theses were to be denied. Needless to say, Luther was not pleased. In fact, his contempt for the church is quite evident in most of his writings (to say he least). At any rate, from this point on, Luther and his followers were dubbed protestants (in that they were protesting their Catholic faith). However, almost immediately, there sprung up dissent in the Luther camp. People disagreed! (Imagine that) But unlike the Catholic faith of the last 1500 years, there was no auhority in protestantism to call a council and discuss matters. So, people took their bibles and went home.... such is still the practice today. Within protestantism, if you don't agree with someone, you don't have to work it out and come to an understanding (even if it's begrudgingly) you can just go start your own church.

The splintering of protestantism is really too numerous to count. I've heard estimates based upon clerical registrations for business licences to be around 30,000 distinct denominations or more, but I haven't been able to substantiate this claim.

At any rate, I've left out a great deal of information (needless to say) some good and some bad for both parties. However, what I have stated is accurate to the best of my knowledge.

In closing, little resemblance can be found today in the churches that remain from the original reformer Luther. For instance, Luther displayed a considerable honor of the virgin Mary, and many other doctrines which his "followers" have since abandoned.

Additionally, the Catholic church continued after the departure of the "protestants" and later the church of England under King Henry VIII. It "cleaned up it's act" so to speak though as always there remain some of the blemishes of scandal. However, as a Catholic myself, the element of human weakness and sin which has always been an unfortunate part of the church, just demonstrates the fact that that the church’s remarkable resilience is not at all due to the cunning or strength of certain men and women, but to the unfailing guidance and providence of the Holy Spirit. Esentially, Christ meant what he said when he promised that
"the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it". And when He said:
"behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world”
 
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Patdoggydogg said:
Hey, I am a "confused" Christian, i guess would be the term...but i am wondering what exactly is the difference between catholics, and Prodastents( way misspelled i bet haha). I mean, i know that Prod.'s believe in the 10 commandments, and whatnot, and catholics believe in being a Good person will get you into heaven (whichi is what i think, yet i also think that following the commandments is good too) Can someone help me out plz? Thanks...

You might also want to visit the Orthodox forum to get a better understanding of the divisions that exist between the major sects of Christianity.
 
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Radio-Free Gnosis

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Magisterium said:
This opened the door to many modes of heretical thought. Namely Gnosticism, Pelagianism, Donatism, and the ever popular Arianism. At any rate, mot of these modes of thought were based upon incorrect suppositions of the natures of God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.
Incorrect? :sigh: And you know this how?
 
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Radio-Free Gnosis

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I'm a Christian Gnostic who doesn't believe in the authority of the church. :p

I don't like the term neo-Gnostic. It makes me sound like one of those Novus Spiritus people. (No offense to any Novus folks who may be here, of course.)

I am a Christian who believes that Christ gave esoteric teachings ("secret sayings" and whathaveyou.)

Perhaps this isn't the place to continue this further, Mag...
 
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Lyle

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Well, hopefully without sparking a big fight, Christianity is not just a bunch of people trying to figure out the scriptures which fell out of the sky.
This is not true... For God has given His Holy Spirit to us, to guide us in the understanding of His word. The Bible is not up to chosing of what one will believe. uch as the belief that man can earn his way to heaven by good works is unbiblical.... Though many Catholics will argue this, I will be interested in hearing their arguement... But if a friendly match has already begun... i will be glad to jump in ;)
 
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Magisterium

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Lyle said:
I'm going to go ahead and submit this......

Romans 3:20
In light of this verse, how can man earn his way into heaven... By his own works?
Perhaps if I were a less knowledgeable Catholic, I might be drawn into your debate. However, I know for a fact that the church has never taught that man somehow can get to heaven through his own merit.

The problem here is that "you do not disagree with the Catholic Church, you disagree with what you've been told about the Catholic Church." -Scott Hahn

However, can you show me where scripture asserts itself as the sole authority over Christianity? The fact is, the idea is completely irrational! How can a book tell a man (or woman) that the "spirit" they feel is not the Holy Spirit?

If the idea of Sola Scriptura had any merit, Protestantism would not have the splintering it has now. In fact, in asserting that the Holy Spirit guides all men to truthful interpretation of scripture, then who in protestantism is guided by the Holy Spirit, and who is not? The fact is, Luther's ideas about Christianity apart from the Church Jesus founded failed within a few years. When has there ever been a protestant "council" where disagreements are worked out and the members remain one as Jesus prayed and Paul instructed us to be? There is no such thing! As a result, Jesus' church appears to be adrift in a sea of pride and contradiction among its contenders. I could easily put down any of the tired and weak arguments you will put to me. The fact is, the Catholic Church has been aroud for over 2000 years. The early heresies (which are now resurfacing as "schools of thought") were far more fierce and intellectually substantive than the stuff of protestantism is made of. And even many of those, the church put down even before the bible was ever canonized. I'll be glad to answer your questions however and set straight whatever "beefs" you think you have with the Church.
 
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Magisterium

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It is important when considering God's word as it relates to Judeo-Christianity, God has always layed the foundation but appointed certain people to maintain authority over it's interpretation. Beginning with Moses, then Joshua, and we see (at the prompting of Jethro) the establishment of a hierarchy for the Authoritative interpretation of God's word as it relates to individual circumstances. In fact, the chair of Moses (Which Christ referrs to in Mt 23), is the position of the supreme teacher in succession from Moses. Additionally, Jesus acknowledges the currupt nature of these people but says:

2 ...The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses.
3 Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice."
Here we see that this authority is not diminished by the individual sins of these people. Likewise, though various church leaders have had checkered pasts (to say the least) the teaching and guiding authority of the church is not diminished as the protestant reformation asserted. Problems like "well what did God really mean when He said X" are moot when you recognize and respect the authority God invested into his church.

18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."-Mt 16:18
The Church remains to this day and still lays down the law authoritatively for Christianity whether one recognizes it or not.
 
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Lyle

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Perhaps if I were a less knowledgeable Catholic, I might be drawn into your debate. However, I know for a fact that the church has never taught that man somehow can get to heaven through his own merit.
Hmmmm, you are the first Catholic that I've talked to that does not believe it's by deeds that one may enter into heaven.

The problem here is that "you do not disagree with the Catholic Church, you disagree with what you've been told about the Catholic Church." -Scott Hahn
If you're speaking to me, please do not assume I do not know that much about the Catholic Church.... Or, what it teaches...

However, can you show me where scripture asserts itself as the sole authority over Christianity?
What? Are you giving to the arguement that the words of man are greater then the words of God? And that the teachings of tradition are greater the the words of truth?
The Scripture contains the words of God, and all Hid words that He would have Christians and man to learn by, to add or take away would be anything by Biblical.. But to be a Christian is to be a follower of Christ, how can one be a follower if He does not hold the Bible as the supreme authority?

Indeed Peter calls the New testiment by, "a more sure word of prophcey." Paul refers to it as life, and that we are not to have fellowship with those who break it... The Bible is God's completed word, to add to is to say God did not give enough instructions.... Besides the fact that the Old Covenant is finished and we need no more instructiopns...
If so saying, can you show me in Scripture whre we are free to add, and interpret as we see fit? The Bible is clear on it's meanings if we look into it.. Leaving no room for error..

How can a book tell a man (or woman) that the "spirit" they feel is not the Holy Spirit?
You take the Scriptures to lightly and make them of no account... It does give you plenty on telling whether what you feel is of the truth or no, one needs only to look.... To say otherwise gives to nothing more then a position of ignorance, in saying that the Scriptures have not been studyed....

If the idea of Sola Scriptura had any merit, Protestantism would not have the splintering it has now. In fact, in asserting that the Holy Spirit guides all men to truthful interpretation of scripture, then who in protestantism is guided by the Holy Spirit, and who is not?
You do greatly error in this.. You mistake the fact that men mis the truth as being the lack of Holy Spirit. If it is the Holy Spirit you indeed have trouble believeing, that is a different matter entirely... But might I show some areas where men have missed the truth and believed a lie...
Speaking in tongues, if one were to look it up in it's Greek context you would see that it means a language naturally aquirred. Nothing like what people hold it today; Gabriel, this one is not an Archangel as many would hold... Nor does the Bible imply that he is an archangel, but this coes from tradition; Works verses grace, in that what we an do will get us into heaven (if the works be good); Pre-Destination, in that it goes completely aganst the finished work of Christ and the system of grace; Peter as being a Pope, or Mary as being someone better then all others..... And the list goes on and on. I will not anwser these now, but only if you ask... I see that these do not bear on this thread... (well perhaps some do).

To say that men can nknow about God in any other location then the Bible is false... Because it is only the Bible that contains the words of God... It makes clear this fact itself.

The fact is, the Catholic Church has been aroud for over 2000 years.
And this indeed makes it correct? In that alot of it's teaches go against the word of God? Even so much so in the way it's run.....

I'll be glad to answer your questions however and set straight whatever "beefs" you think you have with the Church.
I'll ask these.. Who do you think Jesus is? What did His finished work on the cross mean? And what of the Sacrament(sp?)s, what are they?

God has always layed the foundation but appointed certain people to maintain authority over it's interpretation.
And now it has been passed unto all believers.... (1 Peter 2:9) and that the law of grace goes freely to all. The Word is for every Christian, not one or two... Nor is this implied through the Bible.
 
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Epiphany

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Patdoggydogg said:
Hey, I am a "confused" Christian, i guess would be the term...but i am wondering what exactly is the difference between catholics, and Prodastents( way misspelled i bet haha). I mean, i know that Prod.'s believe in the 10 commandments, and whatnot, and catholics believe in being a Good person will get you into heaven (whichi is what i think, yet i also think that following the commandments is good too) Can someone help me out plz? Thanks...
PM me if you want, or just use this thread...get a discussion goin :)



~No lie, just know I, chose my own fait, I drove by the fork in the road and went straight~

To Life Immortal

OK, I am new Christian less than one year. I am Eastern Orthodox. I think the differences between Protestants and Catholics is where authority is placed. Seems to me that Protestants interpret Bible for themselves without Tradition nor the Examples from the early church fathers. That's why there are so many Protestant churches. I was a Pagan (Asatru/Egyptian) before I became Christian and I had to research the major denominations to see which ones I fit into. Orthodoxy just spoke to me more.

Another difference between the churches is how they view the Eucharist. Some Protestants do not believe in the Real Presence. When I receive communion, I receive the Body and Blood of Lord Jesus. I read in Bible where Lord Jesus says it is. We have more sacraments(mysteries) than Protestants: Baptism, Chrismation, Communion, Marriage, Holy Orders, Prayer for Sick and Confession. Orthodox church services are very liturgical. For me, it is like watching an opera about Lord Jesus and why He came to us. The high point is the Eucharist.

Differences between Orthodox and Catholic are fewer. We don't have a Pope, our bishops and jurisdiction leaders are equal. We receive Eucharist in both bread and wine with a spoon. We make the sign of the Cross differently. We offer Eucharist to babies and children. We don't have Immaculate Conception for belief. (thinking about more differences) oh, we don't have Adoration of Sacrament. We have icons not 3d images. and celebrate Pascha (Easter) sometimes on different dates.

I'm still a newbie to both Christianity and Orthodoxy, so I am still learning. The people in TAW know more than I do and probably could have answered questions better. If you have questions, I will try to answer or get an answer from someone wiser.

Peace and Long Life
~*~ Epiphany ~*~
 
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