Did you read Genesis One?

tjnesbitt · Feb 12, 2006

Actually, heaven, the planet heaven, was created in Genesis 1:1 at the same time that the earth was created.

It will be renovated as seen in Revelation chapter 21 and the real physical city of the New Jerusalem will be moved from the tangible planet, called heaven, to the tangible place called earth!

Why is it hard to believe that God lives in a place similar to the place he created for us. Especially when we are like him and he/they are like us?

tjnesbitt · Feb 12, 2006

Actually, the north pole always points to the same part of the universe and that is why you can find your way on a starry night by finding the north star!

Dannager · Feb 12, 2006

tjnesbitt said:
Actually, the north pole always points to the same part of the universe and that is why you can find your way on a starry night by finding the north star!

Are you aware that the current North Star (known as Polaris) was not always the most circumpolar (from the north pole) star? And at some point the earth's orientation will shift far enough away from Polaris that another star will take its place as the North Star? The argument could be made that at the time the Bible was written, Polaris was still the North Star, and thus God intended it to be read as such.

shernren · Feb 12, 2006

Heaven is a northerly planet?

...

(I have absolutely nothing polite to say about this and therefore I shan't say anything at all.)

OldWiseGuy · Feb 12, 2006

shernren said:
Is Lucifer "metaphorically" ascending from a "metaphorical" earth of the "metaphorical" second heaven into the "metaphorical" third heaven of a "metaphorical" (ooh. I'd better watch my step here) God's throne to which he still had "metaphorical" access?

You can't have it both ways. If it's a metaphorical / allegorical description of Satan you can't draw details out of it as if Isaiah was writing Satan's biography.

Actually, I can.

Being referred to in metaphorical way doesn't render the subject a 'metaphor'. The King of Babylon, as well as the King of Tyre (Tyrus) are virtual metaphors of Lucifer. Those accounts are a living history as well as prophesy of the past and future fate of Lucifer/Satan's kingdom.

oldwiseguy

tjnesbitt · Feb 12, 2006

Have you ever considered a paradigm shift? I mean to really read and consider, what the bible is saying, and not just continuing to think according to traditional views that are significantly flawed?

shernren · Feb 13, 2006

Being referred to in metaphorical way doesn't render the subject a 'metaphor'. The King of Babylon, as well as the King of Tyre (Tyrus) are virtual metaphors of Lucifer. Those accounts are a living history as well as prophesy of the past and future fate of Lucifer/Satan's kingdom.

True, I don't believe Satan himself is a metaphor, but I believe that if the passage is a metaphorical description of him the most you can say about him from the passage is that he is metaphorically ascending to a metaphorical third heaven. Either the details about him are metaphorical, or they are not, irrespective of whether he himself is metaphorical.

Dannager · Feb 13, 2006

tjnesbitt said:
Have you ever considered a paradigm shift? I mean to really read and consider, what the bible is saying, and not just continuing to think according to traditional views that are significantly flawed?

I agree that a paradigm shift must occur in order to properly interpret the Bible. One must place themselves in the position of one of the authors of the Bible in order to understand the message that they were trying to convey. This is among the reasons I interpret the Genesis account as allegorical and not literal truth.

Gwenyfur · Feb 13, 2006

tjnesbitt said:
Actually, heaven, the planet heaven, was created in Genesis 1:1 at the same time that the earth was created.

It will be renovated as seen in Revelation chapter 21 and the real physical city of the New Jerusalem will be moved from the tangible planet, called heaven, to the tangible place called earth!

Why is it hard to believe that God lives in a place similar to the place he created for us. Especially when we are like him and he/they are like us?

Okay...even I'm raising an eyebrow at this one...

tjnesbitt · Feb 13, 2006

Gwenyfur, you look nice with your eyebrow raised... Let me see if I can raise the other.

Jeremiah 4:23-28 speaks of a time when "the earth is void and without form and the heavens, they had no light." It continues to explain that "there was no man and all the birds of the heavens were fled ... at the presence of the Lord and by his fierce anger."

Then in verse 27 the Lord says he will "not make a full end."

The only time I can find these conditions mentioned, in the past or future, are in Genesis 1:2. Meaning that a civilization must have existed here that was destroyed.

Isaiah 14:17 explains that when Lucifer rebelled against God he "made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof." Hmmm... . . .

Gwenyfur · Feb 13, 2006

Jeremiah 4:28-31 KJV
28For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

29The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein.
30And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life. 31For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers.

If you read on you see that this is a vision of Jeremiah, a prophecy that is *yet to be fulfilled* That time has not yet come, nore will it until Y'shua returns to rule His kingdom

Shalom

gluadys · Feb 13, 2006

Gwenyfur said:
If you read on you see that this is a vision of Jeremiah, a prophecy that is *yet to be fulfilled* That time has not yet come, nore will it until Y'shua returns to rule His kingdom

Shalom

Who says it has not been fulfilled? As far as I know Jeremiah is describing the condition of Jerusalem after the city was destroyed by the Babylonians.

bullietdodger · Feb 13, 2006

Dannager said:
Yep, Genesis One provides a fascinating allegorical creation tale designed to teach a moral lesson.

What would that moral lesson be?

Dannager · Feb 13, 2006

bullietdodger said:
What would that moral lesson be?

The following things:

1. God is omnipotent and omniscient. He sees and knows all.
2. God is the creator, and the original cause for the universe.
3. God is to be obeyed, and to disobey God is to sin.
4. God has both the power to give life and to take it away.
5. Temptation against God's will exists, and is to be resisted.

These five things are truths. They are illustrated very effectively in the Genesis account, but that does not mean that the details of the Genesis account, just like the details of any morality tale out there, need to be literally factual.

bullietdodger · Feb 13, 2006

Dannager said:
The following things:

Dannager said:
1. God is omnipotent and omniscient. He sees and knows all.

True.

2. God is the creator, and the original cause for the universe.

Check and thank you for supporting the factual account of Genesis 1.

3. God is to be obeyed, and to disobey God is to sin.

True, however the possiblity of sin is not mentioned until chapter 2 and the fall doesn't happen until chapter 3.

4. God has both the power to give life and to take it away.

True.

5. Temptation against God's will exists, and is to be resisted.

Temptation doesn't happen until chapter 3 of Genesis.

These five things are truths. They are illustrated very effectively in the Genesis account, but that does not mean that the details of the Genesis account, just like the details of any morality tale out there, need to be literally factual.

Read Genesis 12 through 50. Tell me, do you believe these chapters in Genesis to be literally true?

tjnesbitt · Feb 15, 2006

Did you know that the bible plainly teaches that there are some things that God does not know?

Dannager · Feb 15, 2006

tjnesbitt said:
Did you know that the bible plainly teaches that there are some things that God does not know?

Actually, no, I didn't know that. Care to cite some scripture for me?

tjnesbitt · Feb 15, 2006

How many scriptures do you need? God's omniscience is misunderstood. There are many statements where God reveals that he has limited knowledge about the activities of men. Genesis 6:5-7; 11:5-7; 18:21; 22:12; 2 Chron. 16:9; Zech. 4:10; Job 12:22; Jer. 17:10; Ezek. 11:3 and there are many more.

The thing to know is that there is no statement in the bible that says that God knows, or even would like to know, all acts and events of all his vast creations.

God does have many messengers and delegates to oversee and accomplish his purposes in the earth. Actually he uses angels to record our statements, which we will be judged by.

Dannager · Feb 15, 2006

Well geez, does this mean that God isn't omnipotent? I guess one could make the argument that God doesn't keep tabs on the whole world simply because he chooses not to, but I can't see any other way that God could avoid omniscience and still remain omnipotent.

KerrMetric · Feb 15, 2006

Dannager said:
Well geez, does this mean that God isn't omnipotent? I guess one could make the argument that God doesn't keep tabs on the whole world simply because he chooses not to, but I can't see any other way that God could avoid omniscience and still remain omnipotent.

Actually, there is no reason to presume either. Neither is necessary.

Did you read Genesis One?

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