did you know!

geetrue · Jun 20, 2015

Thanks for all the scriptures frogster ... you can tell you really care.

But the question is about the Spirit filled believer and the law. A Spirit filled believer will have the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit to prick him, to remind him, to bring up the rule we all agree with and that is to love the Lord thy God with all of thy heart, all of thy soul and with all of thy might.

That's all we really have to do is just love Him ...

I like it in Isaiah something something where God reminds Israel that they give him no sweet cane meaning that they just want to please themselves.

So give him some sweet cane, take communion and call Jesus Lord and if you need to do anything else the Holy Spirit will guide you through the process.

geetrue · Jun 20, 2015

How do you copy post #20 to use later ... cut and paste does not work?

ToBeLoved · Jun 20, 2015

geetrue said:
How do you copy post #20 to use later ... cut and paste does not work?

Cut and paste should work. Where are you trying to paste it into? Like Word or some text editor?

SpiritPsalmist · Jun 20, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
It is a shame that the Bible is more available now than at any other time in history. We can get them on our phones, computers, in print and still people don't search the scriptures to see if what they hear is true or false. I agree with you.

Thanks for explaining what you meant.

You're welcome. What is sad too, is that people are so willing to listen to almost anyone. Even if we are searching, many times we don't go past or before the scriptures given to us. We just accept at face value what the other person is telling us and don't see that their telling only part of the story. In doing that they are actually telling a false story because they are giving only pieces (like when someone quotes only part of your post), much like the National Enquirer (a celebrity gossip magazine) builds a story of falseness by using only bits and pieces of the whole story. They themselves may not even realize they are doing that, however, that will not excuse them when they face HIM. Only if they repent and turn from their wicked ways will they escape the wrath...however that plays out.

geetrue · Jun 20, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
Cut and paste should work. Where are you trying to paste it into? Like Word or some text editor?

Works now ... PC needed coffee thanks

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 20, 2015

SpiritPsalmist said:
Matt 5:18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Fulfilled meant "living it out, not ending it", plus since we're still alive and well on planet earth, the instructions of God are not dead and done away with nor has everything been accomplished. That's what Jesus said anyway. Of course what Jesus came to do here on earth He accomplished, but since we're still here and waiting for His return, not ALL His plans have been accomplished (played out here on earth) yet.

We are still instructed to "not let sin reign in our bodies" and he says that right after he says "consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God". (Romans 6:11-12) The whole chapter is good though.

Jesus spoke those words in Matthew 5:18 before His death on the cross. Just before He died on the cross, He said "It is finished". This means that the Law was accomplished at that point. The Law is still the Law of God and it is holy. There is nothing wrong with it because it shows the standards that God has set, but when a person because a new creation in Christ, he is no longer under the Law as it was in the Old Testament. He is in Christ, and as long as he is abiding in Christ, then the Law's fulfillment is effective in him, because Christ fulfilled the Law, and has written the new Law of the spirit of life in Christ which replaces the Law of sin and death. If the requirements of the Law were not accomplished at the cross, then we cannot be born again, because we would still be under the requirements of the Law. But we are not. Being in Christ replaces the requirement to the Law. Christ has become the Law for us, and the Holy Spirit works within us to develop our thinking to conform to how God thinks about us.

The Romans 6:11-12 reading shows that we need to change our thinking away from the world and the flesh, and start thinking like Christ, and as we develop that, we will find that sin will not reign in our mortal bodies. Our thinking has to change first, then our conduct will change. We cannot reform ourselves, because we are dead, crucified with Christ. You cannot reform a dead person. But we are alive in Christ, being new creatures in Him, and as our thinking changes to thinking as new creatures in Christ, then Christ will reign and nothing else.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 20, 2015

SpiritPsalmist said:
I'm saying what Jesus said in regards to the Torah being done and gone...In Matthew 5:18 He said, "until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished". Therefore, since we are still living on the earth, it's obviously NOT passed away yet, that means that the law has not passed away either. He also added that those who break the laws (God's laws, not Jewish laws) and teach others to break the laws too would be considered the least in heaven. It does not say they won't be in heaven just that they will be considered the least. Those who won't enter heaven are those whose righteousness does not surpass that of the scribes and Pharisees (the hypocrites).

It's context is:

17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Isaiah 64:6 says, "For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

Our righteousness, done in our own efforts and flaunted before the world in bragging is as filthy rags. However those who put their faith and trust in Jesus for their salvation are saved by grace through their faith. It is by the Righteousness of Jesus that we are made righteous. Righteousness is an action though, we are not made righteous just to go through life enjoying God's blessings and not blessing others as well...however that would demonstrate itself in each of us (some are able to give, some are helpers, etc.). It's not something we must strive for, it's something that flows out of us onto others as we spend time in God's presence submitting to HIS righteousness.

I believe there are many who claim to believe in Jesus, yet they do not do what He says and in fact, teach the opposite of what He says. When they stand before Him and have to give account for what they taught, at the very least they will be the least in heaven. At the worst they will be called false teachers. And those they've taught incorrectly who have not taken the time to check it all out for themselves and seek the Lord for HIS Truth, will just continue to spread incorrect teaching of others who will continue right on down the line. False teachers are liars and scripture says there will be no liars in heaven (1 Cor 6:9-11) Those who are still living have time to repent though.

If you want to be a change agent in the lives and experiences of the people about whom you are concerned, how are you going to do that in terms of the fruit of the Spirit? Are you going to try to expose false teachers and believers who are living inconsistently to the Gospel by telling them that they are false and that they should repent? Or are you going to show the amazing goodness, patience and kindness of God to influence their thinking to how God is thinking about them?

We must always remember that God loves them as much as He loves us, and no-one is saved because they are good or that they deserve it in any way, but that God's goodness is so overwhelming marvellous, that when they experience it, they are drawn away from their falsehood to a genuine faith and trust in Christ. Then, as their thinking changes, in the way way as ours change, then there will be a change in the way the teach about God and Christ. This is will backed up by the radiance of the fruit of the Spirit in their lives.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 20, 2015

cyberlizard said:
Did you know that the natural / carnal man cannot submit to God's Torah!

I wonder what this means about the spirit-filled believer!

Steve

It means that the natural/carnal man was killed by God when He crucified him to the cross with Christ. It is very dead, and therefore has no ability to submit to anything. So, why even think about it? Why seek the living among the dead?

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 20, 2015

Biblicist said:
Wow...if Israel of old couldn't do it and even though we have an advantage in that we have the Holy Spirit residing within us, I still don't think that it would be something that I would really like to try.

Ever tried speaking to a dead body and telling it to submit to the Torah? What does it do?

SpiritPsalmist · Jun 20, 2015

Oscarr said:
Jesus spoke those words in Matthew 5:18 before His death on the cross. Just before He died on the cross, He said "It is finished". This means that the Law was accomplished at that point. The Law is still the Law of God and it is holy. There is nothing wrong with it because it shows the standards that God has set, but when a person because a new creation in Christ, he is no longer under the Law as it was in the Old Testament. He is in Christ, and as long as he is abiding in Christ, then the Law's fulfillment is effective in him, because Christ fulfilled the Law, and has written the new Law of the spirit of life in Christ which replaces the Law of sin and death. If the requirements of the Law were not accomplished at the cross, then we cannot be born again, because we would still be under the requirements of the Law. But we are not. Being in Christ replaces the requirement to the Law. Christ has become the Law for us, and the Holy Spirit works within us to develop our thinking to conform to how God thinks about us.

His mission here on earth was finished but heaven and earth is STILL here, therefore, as per Jesus Himself, "UNTIL heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or tittle of the law is done away with". I know you mean well Oscarr, but really, how do you get around that part of the statement?

Jesus did not keep the requirements of the law to make it so that we don't have to, He kept them to prove His qualification of being the Messiah and could rightfully take His place as the new High Priest in heaven.

As you've said, we are no longer under the law of "sin and death". We don't have to die for our sins because Jesus did that. We are under God's grace and can approach the throne boldly.

Oscarr said:
The Romans 6:11-12 reading shows that we need to change our thinking away from the world and the flesh, and start thinking like Christ, and as we develop that, we will find that sin will not reign in our mortal bodies. Our thinking has to change first, then our conduct will change. We cannot reform ourselves, because we are dead, crucified with Christ. You cannot reform a dead person. But we are alive in Christ, being new creatures in Him, and as our thinking changes to thinking as new creatures in Christ, then Christ will reign and nothing else.

I don't have an argument with what you've said. Here is an exert from my study in the book of Romans:

Romans 6:11-12
Verse 11 the KJV uses the word "reckon" According to the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance the word is translated from #3049, Logizomai, meaning "to take inventory, estimate, conclude" What it's suggesting is that, in our context here, considering one's being dead to sin is of a serious nature and I need to consider all the issues of who I am before God and who He is and what He accomplished in His death, burial, and resurrection and how that all applies to me personally. It's not a quick, emotional decision motivated by guilt and fear and seasoned with music. When I have thought through the whole process or who I am before God and what He accomplished for me I need to say it out loud (Romans 10:9, however each person, mute, deaf, etc., would declare it for all in their presence to hear/see/understand) that Jesus is Lord and I believe in my heart that Jesus was raised from the dead and I am saved. I have entered into a God/man relationship. I don't understand all the dynamics of the spoken word, I believe there are many, but the bottom line is I need to state out loud, in the hearing of others, the finished work of Jesus Christ.

Verse 12 The key word here is "let". We have a choice. We still have to deal with the habitual characteristic of sin. That is where submission and obedience come in. First we are to admit that we were powerless over our sin. Second, that "we can do all things through Him who gives us strength" (Phil 4:13). Third, make a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God. Confession and submission. I have to be willing to put myself in submission to the authority of God if I am to reap the benefits of having power over sin.

Frogster · Jun 20, 2015

geetrue said:
Thanks for all the scriptures frogster ... you can tell you really care.

But the question is about the Spirit filled believer and the law. A Spirit filled believer will have the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit to prick him, to remind him, to bring up the rule we all agree with and that is to love the Lord thy God with all of thy heart, all of thy soul and with all of thy might.

That's all we really have to do is just love Him ...

I like it in Isaiah something something where God reminds Israel that they give him no sweet cane meaning that they just want to please themselves.

So give him some sweet cane, take communion and call Jesus Lord and if you need to do anything else the Holy Spirit will guide you through the process.

Yes, amen bro, the Spirit is our life and righteousness, and he was righteous before everything, or anyone.

Frogster · Jun 20, 2015

Oscarr said:
Ever tried speaking to a dead body and telling it to submit to the Torah? What does it do?

the command came, sin revived...the old man.....

9I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived

Frogster · Jun 20, 2015

SpiritPsalmist said:
His mission here on earth was finished but heaven and earth is STILL here, therefore, as per Jesus Himself, "UNTIL heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or tittle of the law is done away with". I know you mean well Oscarr, but really, how do you get around that part of the statement?

Jesus did not keep the requirements of the law to make it so that we don't have to, He kept them to prove His qualification of being the Messiah and could rightfully take His place as the new High Priest in heaven.

As you've said, we are no longer under the law of "sin and death". We don't have to die for our sins because Jesus did that. We are under God's grace and can approach the throne boldly.

I don't have an argument with what you've said. Here is an exert from my study in the book of Romans:

Romans 6:11-12
Verse 11 the KJV uses the word "reckon" According to the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance the word is translated from #3049, Logizomai, meaning "to take inventory, estimate, conclude" What it's suggesting is that, in our context here, considering one's being dead to sin is of a serious nature and I need to consider all the issues of who I am before God and who He is and what He accomplished in His death, burial, and resurrection and how that all applies to me personally. It's not a quick, emotional decision motivated by guilt and fear and seasoned with music. When I have thought through the whole process or who I am before God and what He accomplished for me I need to say it out loud (Romans 10:9, however each person, mute, deaf, etc., would declare it for all in their presence to hear/see/understand) that Jesus is Lord and I believe in my heart that Jesus was raised from the dead and I am saved. I have entered into a God/man relationship. I don't understand all the dynamics of the spoken word, I believe there are many, but the bottom line is I need to state out loud, in the hearing of others, the finished work of Jesus Christ.

Verse 12 The key word here is "let". We have a choice. We still have to deal with the habitual characteristic of sin. That is where submission and obedience come in. First we are to admit that we were powerless over our sin. Second, that "we can do all things through Him who gives us strength" (Phil 4:13). Third, make a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God. Confession and submission. I have to be willing to put myself in submission to the authority of God if I am to reap the benefits of having power over sin.

frog green above, but some jot and tittle was fulfilled, like the Mosaic code..all done...on the tree.

Luke 24:44 Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

Frogster · Jun 20, 2015

geetrue said:
Works now ... PC needed coffee thanks

good to hear from ya bro, glad your PC woke up! frog.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 20, 2015

Frogster said:
the command came, sin revived...the old man.....

9I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived

Notice that at the start of Romans 7 Paul says that he is speaking to those under the Law, which means that he was not speaking to Christian believers at that point. He realised that Jews under the Law would be reading his letter, so he inserts a chapter just for them so they can be aware of the issues between Law and grace. So, it is wrong to apply Romans 7 to Christian believers when Paul is quite clear that he was writing to unconverted Jews at that point. Paul was telling the unconverted Jews of his own experience under the Law and the change of thinking that came with his conversion to Christ.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 20, 2015

Frogster said:
frog green above, but some jot and tittle was fulfilled, like the Mosaic code..all done...on the tree.

Luke 24:44 Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

The fulfillment took place on the cross. If it didn't, then Jesus could not have been a complete Saviour for us. He did not say as He was dying, "It is partly finished", did He?

SpiritPsalmist · Jun 20, 2015

Oscarr said:
The fulfillment took place on the cross. If it didn't, then Jesus could not have been a complete Saviour for us. He did not say as He was dying, "It is partly finished", did He?

You still have not answered the question regarding His statement about "Until Heaven and earth pass away not one jot or tittle will pass way from the law". What was fulfilled on the cross was what He came to earth to do. There are many things yet to be fulfilled on earth though....just read Revelations.

SpiritPsalmist · Jun 21, 2015

Oscarr said:
Notice that at the start of Romans 7 Paul says that he is speaking to those under the Law, which means that he was not speaking to Christian believers at that point. He realised that Jews under the Law would be reading his letter, so he inserts a chapter just for them so they can be aware of the issues between Law and grace. So, it is wrong to apply Romans 7 to Christian believers when Paul is quite clear that he was writing to unconverted Jews at that point. Paul was telling the unconverted Jews of his own experience under the Law and the change of thinking that came with his conversion to Christ.

Romans 7 He is still, from the previous chapter, talking about having power over the law of sin in our lives. He's not talking about doing away with Torah. He begins this section using an illustration of a man and woman who are married. In the previous chapters they were told to stop giving their body members over to sin but instead give them over to God's righteousness. He explained to them, using their laws of marriage and divorce how they were no longer bound to the law of sin because they were set free to live as God instructed...they were no longer bound to do what sin said, but could freely live by Gods standards. Not in their own strength but in the strength they have in Christ Jesus.

The only law we are free from is the only one the writer of Romans points out. The law of sin and death.

What is the Law of Sin and Death?

The law of sin and death is the habitual tendency to sin which works in the members before the sinner is converted and joined to Yeshua. It is the carnal or fleshly nature from which man is freed and to which he dies when connected to Yeshua. It is the law of sin. Sin is the transgression of the law. Sin is what men who come to Christ die to. This is what Paul means when he says the words, "If her husband be dead, she is freed from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man." Rom. 7:3. Whom does Paul mean by the words, "the husband be dead"? What is "dead"? To what is the woman dead? Paul answers, "How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" He calls this first husband "our old man." Rom. 6:6. He says, "Our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." He says again, "He that is dead is freed from sin." Rom. 6:7. When this "old man" is dead, the woman is free. Rom. 7:3. Free from what? Paul answers as above, "Free from sin." In Romans 6, note the words "dead to sin" (Verse 2) and "free from sin." Verse 22. In Romans 8:2, we read, "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 21, 2015

SpiritPsalmist said:
You still have not answered the question regarding His statement about "Until Heaven and earth pass away not one jot or tittle will pass way from the law". What was fulfilled on the cross was what He came to earth to do. There are many things yet to be fulfilled on earth though....just read Revelations.

You are correct in your last sentence. But I don't agree that in terms of the fulfillment of the Law that it is something that will happen in the future. The Law has been fulfilled in Christ as to the requirement that we be subject to it. Being in Christ cancels that subjection. But the Law is still there as a signpost to God's standards and will remain to the end of the age. But because we are in Christ, He has fulfilled the requirements of the Law for us, and therefore while we are abiding in Him, His fulfillment overrides any further requirement of the Law from us.

SpiritPsalmist · Jun 21, 2015

Oscarr said:
You are correct in your last sentence. But I don't agree that in terms of the fulfillment of the Law that it is something that will happen in the future. The Law has been fulfilled in Christ as to the requirement that we be subject to it. Being in Christ cancels that subjection. But the Law is still there as a signpost to God's standards and will remain to the end of the age. But because we are in Christ, He has fulfilled the requirements of the Law for us, and therefore while we are abiding in Him, His fulfillment overrides any further requirement of the Law from us.

You still have not answered the question. It seems that you are avoiding answering. What do you suppose He meant when He said that? By saying what He did, it seems that Jesus thinks Torah won't go away until the future. Jesus fulfilled what He was sent here to earth to do, "that whosoever believed on Him would not perish but have everlasting life. For God sent not His son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through Him might be saved" (John 3:16-17) He accomplished that.

There is no requirement that we subject to the law in order to be saved. However, it is still in effect as to how we live...not in order to be saved, but to be righteous. The writer of Romans did not say "quit handing the members of your body over to sin but instead hand them over to God's Righteousness" just to fill in the empty space on the paper he was writing on. "Being IN Christ" does not cancel our subjection to His righteousness and in fact will cause us to subject to His righteousness more.

I think in some ways we are saying the same thing...other than what Jesus said about the Torah not passing away until heaven and earth did. I would still like your take on that sentence. Why did Jesus say it if it's useless info?

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