Did you know about this?

[Yuanshen]

this is horrible!

Look at one of Christianity's greatest men said once about Jewish unbelievers:

Martin Luther 1543
On The Jews and Their Lies
What then shall we Christians do with this damned, rejected race of Jews? Since they live among us and we know about their lying and blasphemy and cursing, we can not tolerate them if we do not wish to share in their lies, curses, and blasphemy. In this way we cannot quench the inextinguishable fire of divine rage nor convert the Jews. We must prayerfully and reverentially practice a merciful severity. Perhaps we may save a few from the fire and flames [of hell]. We must not seek vengeance. They are surely being punished a thousand times more than we might wish them. Let me give you my honest advice.
First, their synagogues should be set on fire, and whatever does not burn up should be covered or spread over with dirt so that no one may ever be able to see a cinder or stone of it. And this ought to be done for the honor of God and of Christianity in order that God may see that we are Christians, and that we have not wittingly tolerated or approved of such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of His Son and His Christians.
Secondly, their homes should likewise be broken down and destroyed. For they perpetrate the same things there that they do in their synagogues. For this reason they ought to be put under one roof or in a stable, like gypsies, in order that they may realize that they are not masters in our land, as they boast, but miserable captives, as they complain of incessantly before God with bitter wailing.
Thirdly, they should be deprived of their prayer-books and Talmuds in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught.
Fourthly, their rabbis must be forbidden under threat of death to teach any more...
Fifthly, passport and traveling privileges should be absolutely forbidden to the Jews. For they have no business in the rural districts since they are not nobles, nor officials, nor merchants, nor the like. Let them stay at home...If you princes and nobles do not close the road legally to such exploiters, then some troop ought to ride against them, for they will learn from this pamphlet what the Jews are and how to handle them and that they ought not to be protected. You ought not, you cannot protect them, unless in the eyes of God you want to share all their abomination...
To sum up, dear princes and nobles who have Jews in your domains, if this advice of mine does not suit you, then find a better one so that you and we may all be free of this insufferable devilish burden - the Jews...
Let the government deal with them in this respect, as I have suggested. But whether the government acts or not, let everyone at least be guided by his own conscience and form for himself a definition or image of a Jew. When you lay eyes on or think of a Jew you must say to yourself: Alas, that mouth which I there behold has cursed and execrated and maligned every Saturday my dear Lord Jesus Christ, who has redeemed me with his precious blood; in addition, it prayed and pleaded before God that I, my wife and children, and all Christians might be stabbed to death and perish miserably. And he himself would gladly do this if he were able, in order to appropriate our goods...
Such a desperate, thoroughly evil, poisonous, and devilish lot are these Jews, who for these fourteen hundred years have been and still are our plague, our pestilence, and our misfortune.
I have read and heard many stories about the Jews which agree with this judgment of Christ, namely, how they have poisoned wells, made assassinations, kidnapped children, as related before. I have heard that one Jew sent another Jew, and this by means of a Christian, a pot of blood, together with a barrel of wine, in which when drunk empty, a dead Jew was found. There are many other similar stories. For their kidnapping of children they have often been burned at the stake or banished (as we already heard). I am well aware that they deny all of this. However, it all coincides with the judgment of Christ which declares that they are venomous, bitter, vindictive, tricky serpents, assassins, and children of the devil, who sting and work harm stealthily wherever they cannot do it openly. For this reason, I would like to see them where there are no Christians. The Turks and other heathen do not tolerate what we Christians endure from these venomous serpents and young devils...next to the devil, a Christian has no more bitter and galling foe than a Jew. There is no other to whom we accord as many benefactions and from whom we suffer as much as we do from these base children of the devil, this brood of vipers.
Translated by Martin H. Bertram, "On The Jews and Their Lies , Luther's Works, Volume 47"; Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1971.
Martin Luther - 1543

And I found this, I know Hitler to be evil, very evil and look what he said!

"I believe that today I am acting in accordance with the will of Almighty God. As I announce the most important work that Christians could undertake and that is to be against the Jews and get rid of them once and for all. We are doing the work of the Lord and let's get on with it." Hitler stated, "Martin Luther has been the greatest encouragement of my life. Luther was a great man. He was a giant. Within one blow he heralded the coming of the new dawn and the new age. He saw clearly that the Jews need to be destroyed and we're only beginning to see that we need to carry this work on." Hitler followed to the letter, Luther's treatise on how to exterminate the Jews. Martin Luther preached his last sermon avidly against the Jews and died four days later. Indeed, Nazi leader Striker at his Nuremberg trial stated, "I have never said anything that Martin Luther did not say".

I also found many other things that church fathers said, very hateful things about unbelievers who were Jewish. How can this be? Why did they say that? Why isn't there love? How can they talk about killing and destroying Jewish places of worship? They are not worshipping devil or anything. Why does Christianity say, oh Luther was great man - don't they know what he said? And what about all the other quotes from these Christian church leaders from olden days?

This really makes me sad. I don't want to be a part of those people. There were also quotes from Calvin and Augestine, more people. You cannot get into heaven hating others!

yuan

I found it all here:

http://oneinmessiah.net/

Then go to place that says "False Church Fathers."

 

[MrJim]

I was discipled amongst mennonites~Luther is no hero among them for the anabaptists suffered at Luther's hand.

 

[Yuanshen]

I was discipled amongst mennonites~Luther is no hero among them for the anabaptists suffered at Luther's hand.

So Luther hurt many people?

Why is he honored among Christian people?


This man is probably in hell. Why is he honored, he should be dishonored for what he has done.

yuan

 

[Abashag]

I'd heard that Luther was nasty to some people, but I never thought he was a pre-Nazi...
Oh well. Even if he was an evil man, God still used him for some good things. The nailing of his treatise against Catholicism on the door, for one.

God can use bad men for good things (like that pagan seer during Israel's wanderings, Baalam). Too bad Luther appears to have been a bad man Maybe he got some sense before he died... Hope so.

 

[MrJim]

So Luther hurt many people?

Why is he honored among Christian people?


This man is probably in hell. Why is he honored, he should be dishonored for what he has done.

yuan

I would hesitate to speculate on Luther's place in eternity...beware of sitting in judgment upon others~is Luther's sin worse than my own?

 

[ReformedChapin]

Why does everyone misrepresent Luther. He wrote his tratise on the Jews because they refused to accept Christ as their Lord and savior. Luther always had hopped that the the Jews would open their minds, but they never did so he was upset over it.

That being said, his tratise wasn't written over race issues but religious issues. He made a mistake, he was human...thats beside the fact that he tended to exagagerate a lot of things.

Hitler took what Luther said OUT OF CONTEXT and used it for his cause. That should be no surprise to anyone.

 

[Canuckmom]

Remember that Luther was a product of his time as we are of ours. We live in a time when we hear all about tolerance, too much tolerance in fact. Martin Luther lived in an intolerant time and came out of a persecuting church. He was a rough man, and I believe a more gentle person could perhaps not have stood up to the pope as he did.
Don't forget this was a translated piece.
My mother tongue is not English and I know there can be subtle changes when anything is translated into another language. Keep that in mind also.

 

[Abashag]

There's not taking what Luther said out of any proper context, even if it was merely a translation. He continues at length on this antisemitic rant. If it were merely a sentence on this, I could honor that argument. However, there are several paragraphs. There is no excuse for this type of mindset. He also persecuted several other Christian sects. Luther had some good things to say, but all in all, he wasn't really a good man.

I suppose Luther was probably looking at how God used the nation of Israel as an instrument of judgement against the wicked peoples of Canaan, and figured that his mission went along those lines. However, each time they were instructed to conquer, they heard God's voice audibly. I dunno about you guys, but it would take hearing God's voice in my very ears to make me go off like this. If you take it upon yourself to be God's instrument of judgment, He may use you anyway, but He will most certainly punish you or convict your heart for such murderous presumption.
My hope for Luther is that God got through to him and showed him his need for repentence from this sin, and Luther complied humbly.

 

[MrJim]

Remember that Luther was a product of his time as we are of ours. We live in a time when we hear all about tolerance, too much tolerance in fact. Martin Luther lived in an intolerant time and came out of a persecuting church. He was a rough man, and I believe a more gentle person could perhaps not have stood up to the pope as he did.
Don't forget this was a translated piece.
My mother tongue is not English and I know there can be subtle changes when anything is translated into another language. Keep that in mind also.

The apostles were men of their time~ancient roman empire wasn't anymore civilized than Luther's day~

 

[Canuckmom]

The apostles were men of their time~ancient roman empire wasn't anymore civilized than Luther's day~

That's hardly a fair comparison between the apostles that had seen and heard the Lord and had the Old Testament while Luther came from the darkness of Rome where physical suffering was meritorious and the Bible a forbidden book.

 

[Albion]

So Luther hurt many people?

Why is he honored among Christian people?


This man is probably in hell. Why is he honored, he should be dishonored for what he has done.

yuan

Luther was a great man of God. In his frustration at the Jews not at last converting to Christianity now that he'd freed it from the tyranny of Rome, he became uncharitable towards them. He also was known for his exceptional acts of kindness and consideration (which you didn't mention).

If you understood Luther and reformed Christianity, it would not be so easy to say that he is in hell. It's not a place for those who commit sin, or else everyone would be there, but for those who reject the Lord--which certainly cannot be said with any fairness about Luther who was keenly aware of all his failings but had an unshakable trust in God.

 

[Simon_Templar]

this is horrible!

Look at one of Christianity's greatest men said once about Jewish unbelievers:









And I found this, I know Hitler to be evil, very evil and look what he said!








I also found many other things that church fathers said, very hateful things about unbelievers who were Jewish. How can this be? Why did they say that? Why isn't there love? How can they talk about killing and destroying Jewish places of worship? They are not worshipping devil or anything. Why does Christianity say, oh Luther was great man - don't they know what he said? And what about all the other quotes from these Christian church leaders from olden days?

This really makes me sad. I don't want to be a part of those people. There were also quotes from Calvin and Augestine, more people. You cannot get into heaven hating others!

yuan

I found it all here:

http://oneinmessiah.net/

Then go to place that says "False Church Fathers."

I'm not an expert on this so you should go to the Lutheran forum here and ask them more about it.

I would say that what many of the Church father's were addressing was not Jewish as an ethnicity, but Jewish as a religion.

Today we have a very tolerant attitude that all religions must be permitted. Whether right or wrong, that attitude is very very recent in history. It was completely unheard of in the time of Martin Luther, and especially further back.

In fact, in those times, people who practiced false religions were viewed as the worst kind of terrorists because rather than harming people physically, they destroyed people's souls.

An example of the difference between Hitler and Luther is Hitler persecuted anyone who he deemed to be of lesser genetic race, no matter what their religion was. He persecuted many Christians as well as Jews. Luther would accept a person of Jewish race without concern for their genetics at all, it was only a matter of their religion, what they believed and taught that mattered to him.

His views may still be wrong, but its an important difference.

But you have to understand that it was common to view false religions and heretics, much like we view terrorists today, except worse because rather than doing temporary harm, they did eternal harm.


Going further back into the early Church, you must also realize that the Jews had been mortal enemies of the Christians, literally. The Jewish council of Jamnia in 90 AD declared all Christians to be apostate and cast out. Just as Paul had experienced years ealier. Christians were beaten and physically persecuted out of the synagogues. Those Jews who had become Christians were rejected by their own people and persecuted.

The jews went further though and often deliberately stirred up trouble against Christians with the local populations. This can be seen in the NT where Jewish synagogue leaders literally started riots in the city among the greeks against Paul.
That kind of thing only got worse and more wide spread. They spread rumors that Christians sacrificed children and were canabals and things like that. Many of the persecutions that the Christians suffered during the early period from the Romans, were effectively started by Jews spreading lies about the Church.

The Jews at that time were extremely anti-Christian, and anti-Christ. So it is no surprise that the Christians wrote very harshly against the Jewish religion. Keep in mind that many of the early Christians had been Jews ethnically, so when they are talking about Jews, they mean the Jewish religion, not the ethnicity.

Another one of the reasons they wrote so harshly against the Jews was because Jewish heresies often threatened to lead Christians astray. This goes back to the first thing I was explaining. To the men of that time, this was viewed as the Jews literally destroying people's souls.

This facet can still be seen today in that many of the messianic groups get off into the very heresies that Paul harshly condemns in the New Testament. In fact the very website you link endorses a number of the same false teahings that Paul harshly condemned.

Two wrongs don't make a right.. but when you put things in context, perhaps you can begin to understand why things were said.

 

[Simon_Templar]

There's not taking what Luther said out of any proper context, even if it was merely a translation. He continues at length on this antisemitic rant. If it were merely a sentence on this, I could honor that argument. However, there are several paragraphs. There is no excuse for this type of mindset. He also persecuted several other Christian sects. Luther had some good things to say, but all in all, he wasn't really a good man.

I suppose Luther was probably looking at how God used the nation of Israel as an instrument of judgement against the wicked peoples of Canaan, and figured that his mission went along those lines. However, each time they were instructed to conquer, they heard God's voice audibly. I dunno about you guys, but it would take hearing God's voice in my very ears to make me go off like this. If you take it upon yourself to be God's instrument of judgment, He may use you anyway, but He will most certainly punish you or convict your heart for such murderous presumption.
My hope for Luther is that God got through to him and showed him his need for repentence from this sin, and Luther complied humbly.

I don't believe in religious persecution.

However, at the same time, I find it some what hypocritical and I admit I question that today people think we should hunt down and kill terrorists who do physical harm to people, but they think we should do nothing to people who send souls to hell through deception and false teaching.

 

[MrJim]

I don't believe in religious persecution.

However, at the same time, I find it some what hypocritical and I admit I question that today people think we should hunt down and kill terrorists who do physical harm to people, but they think we should do nothing to people who send souls to hell through deception and false teaching.

Do ya wanna flesh that out? Sounds like maybe you could be talked into executing some heretics

 

[Simon_Templar]

Do ya wanna flesh that out? Sounds like maybe you could be talked into executing some heretics

hehe,

well, there is an answer to why we can execute terrorists, but not heretics. It is a simple but technical answer.

I was more getting at the fact that people see nothing wrong, infact they applaud killing terrorists, but yet they see killing a false prophet or a false teacher as a great moral evil. This, really, when you get down to it is itself based on a false morality and a false philsophy about reality.

The truth is that the false teachers and false prophets do far worse harm than the terrorists do, and biblically they are just as evil. At God's hands, I have no doubt they will suffer among the most severe penalties. I think God makes that clear in the bible.

The fact that we view a murderer as really evil and a false teacher as basically ok, and within a person's rights, is indicative of what we really believe as a society. It is an expression of our humanism and our naturalism.

The reason that we can execute murders and not heretics or false prophets, is that God alone has the right to take life, and he has delegated that right to mankind under specific circumstances.

God delegated the right to execute to governments for crimes such as murder. Under the Mosaic Covenant he gave the Jews authority to execute people for a whole host of crimes and offences.
But since that covenant came to an end, the authority to execute also came to an end. Thus that which remains is only that which was given to all people under Noah.

This does not include the authority to execute false prophets, or witches etc. Even though that authority was once given to the Jews.

thus it is wrong for us to execute heretics, and witches, and false prophets, because God has not given us the right to do it. It is ok for us to kill murderers because God HAS given us the right to do that.

The issue I was getting at was more in the moral viewpoint that Christians take. Even though we can't and shouldn't execute such people, we should absolutely remember that they are every bit as evil and as harmful as any terrorist.
They can be forgiven if they repent, just like a terrorist could be.. but that does not mean that the unrepentant are any better.

 

[MrJim]

hehe,

well, there is an answer to why we can execute terrorists, but not heretics. It is a simple but technical answer.

I was more getting at the fact that people see nothing wrong, infact they applaud killing terrorists, but yet they see killing a false prophet or a false teacher as a great moral evil. This, really, when you get down to it is itself based on a false morality and a false philsophy about reality.

The truth is that the false teachers and false prophets do far worse harm than the terrorists do, and biblically they are just as evil. At God's hands, I have no doubt they will suffer among the most severe penalties. I think God makes that clear in the bible.

The fact that we view a murderer as really evil and a false teacher as basically ok, and within a person's rights, is indicative of what we really believe as a society. It is an expression of our humanism and our naturalism.

The reason that we can execute murders and not heretics or false prophets, is that God alone has the right to take life, and he has delegated that right to mankind under specific circumstances.

God delegated the right to execute to governments for crimes such as murder. Under the Mosaic Covenant he gave the Jews authority to execute people for a whole host of crimes and offences.
But since that covenant came to an end, the authority to execute also came to an end. Thus that which remains is only that which was given to all people under Noah.

This does not include the authority to execute false prophets, or witches etc. Even though that authority was once given to the Jews.

thus it is wrong for us to execute heretics, and witches, and false prophets, because God has not given us the right to do it. It is ok for us to kill murderers because God HAS given us the right to do that.

The issue I was getting at was more in the moral viewpoint that Christians take. Even though we can't and shouldn't execute such people, we should absolutely remember that they are every bit as evil and as harmful as any terrorist.
They can be forgiven if they repent, just like a terrorist could be.. but that does not mean that the unrepentant are any better.

Good explanation~ya had me a little nervous

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

Then go to place that says "False Church Fathers."

Luther is NOT a Church father. As noted earlier, he used to kill Anabaptists.

He was a founder of the protestant reformation, a new sect of Christianity from the 16th Century that arose from European nationalism.
He is well liked by some Christians because he started a noble project of reforming the problems in the Church that led to a creation of doctrine suited for the faith of the new mindset of Europe (nationalism). It ultimately resulted in division within Christianity, where problems are solved by dissolving communion with other Christians, not working through problems.

 

[MrJim]

It ultimately resulted in division within Christianity, where problems are solved by dissolving communion with other Christians, not working through problems.

...yeah we're pretty good with that splittin' thang

 

[drstevej]

Glad to see the Conservative forum is doing so well.

OP read Martyr's Mirror -- get an intro to the intolerance of the Sixteenth Century. Maybe then you would not fixate on one person as the whipping post.

 

[drstevej]

Glad to see the Conservative forum is doing so well.

OP read Martyr's Mirror -- get an intro to the intolerance of the Sixteenth Century. Maybe then you would not fixate on one person as the whipping post.