Did Yeshua go to Qumran after leaving Lazarus Alive?

[Lulav]

Got to wondering this after reading the account again of the raising of Lazarus.

After the raising of Lazarus we read that the Pharisees had started planning after that to Kill Yeshua, afraid they would lose
their powers under the Roman occupation.

53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.​

54 Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews; but went thence unto a country near to the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim, and there continued with his disciples.​

55 And the Jews' passover was nigh at hand: and many went out of the country up to Jerusalem before the passover, to purify themselves.​

I've looked up this city called Ephraim and it seems to be a bit obscure but did some digging and found it was somewhere outside of Bethany which was where Lazarus lived and today called Taybeh. Now I looked up and Bethany is 2 miles from Jerusalem, The Dead Sea, 6 miles.

However some believe it is today called Taiyibeh and is located Northeast of Jerusalem.

Since he was 'hiding out' from the Pharisees who sought to kill him, not from Fear of dying but of having it done at the wrong time.

Since the verse states it was near the wilderness, I got to wondering if he didn't go to Qumran? The Pharisees wouldn't seek him there would they? I don't think they would be welcomed.

Per a google map I've estimated it would take under 4 hours to walk from Lazarus' tomb to Bethabara/Qumran.

@daq @HARK! I thought you guys might want to chime in on this, share your knowledge.

I hope this will translate, here is the map link

Here's another link to more info on Ephraim.

 

[daq]

Got to wondering this after reading the account again of the raising of Lazarus.

After the raising of Lazarus we read that the Pharisees had started planning after that to Kill Yeshua, afraid they would lose
their powers under the Roman occupation.

53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.​

​

54 Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews; but went thence unto a country near to the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim, and there continued with his disciples.​

​

55 And the Jews' passover was nigh at hand: and many went out of the country up to Jerusalem before the passover, to purify themselves.​

I've looked up this city called Ephraim and it seems to be a bit obscure but did some digging and found it was somewhere outside of Bethany which was where Lazarus lived and today called Taybeh. Now I looked up and Bethany is 2 miles from Jerusalem, The Dead Sea, 6 miles.

However some believe it is today called Taiyibeh and is located Northeast of Jerusalem.

Since he was 'hiding out' from the Pharisees who sought to kill him, not from Fear of dying but of having it done at the wrong time.

Since the verse states it was near the wilderness, I got to wondering if he didn't go to Qumran? The Pharisees wouldn't seek him there would they? I don't think they would be welcomed.

Per a google map I've estimated it would take under 4 hours to walk from Lazarus' tomb to Barabetha/Qumran.

@daq @HARK! I thought you guys might want to chime in on this, share your knowledge.

I hope this will translate, here is the map link

Here's another link to more info on Ephraim.

Thanks for the invite Lulav. The location of the city called Ephraim in John 11:54 isn't known for certainty, but there are some hints: it seems by the commentaries that the most likely place, because of the mention of it being near the wilderness, was about five to eight miles west of Yericho. As you probably know, judging by the map you posted in your OP, Yericho is just a little north of the site now often referred to as Qumran. So then, if this is true, which is pretty big if, then the city would have been about the same distance from Qumran, about five to eight miles west of Qumran, and it would have been in the territory of the tribe of Benyamin.

John 11:54 Commentaries: Therefore Jesus no longer continued to walk publicly among the Jews, but went away from there to the country near the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim; and there He stayed with the disciples.

 

[HARK!]

BETHABARA

beth-ab'-a-ra beth`abharah; (Bethabara, "house of the ford"):

According to the King James Version (following Textus Receptus of the New Testament) the place where John baptized (John 1:28). the Revised Version (British and American) (with Tischendorf, Westcott and Hort, The New Testament in Greek following Codex Sinaiticus, Codex Vaticanus, Codex Alexandrinus, Codex Ephraemi) reads BETHANY. It is distinguished from the Bethany of Lazarus and his sisters as being "beyond the Jordan." The reading "Bethabara" became current owing to the advocacy of Origen. Various suggestions have been made to explain the readings. G. A. Smith (HGHL) suggests that Bethany ("house of the ship") and Bethabara ("house of the ford") are names for the same place. Bethabara has also been identified with Bethbarah, which, however, was probably not on the Jordan but among the streams flowing into it (Judges 7:24). It is interesting to note that LXXB reads Baithabara for Massoretic Text Beth-`arabhah, one of the cities of Benjamin (Joshua 18:22). If this be correct, the site is in Judea.

Another solution is sought in the idea of a corruption of the original name into Bethany and Bethabara, the name having the consonants n, b and r after Beth. In Joshua 13:27 (Septuagint, Codex Vaticanus) we find Baithanabra for Bethnimrah (Massoretic Text), and Sir George Grove in DB (arts. "Bethabara" and "Beth-nimrah") identifies Bethabara and Beth-nimrah. The site of the latter was a few miles above Jericho (see BETH-NIMRAH), "immediately accessible to Jerusalem and all Judea" (compare Matthew 3:5; Mark 1:5, and see article "Bethany" in EB). This view has much in its favor.

Bethabara - International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

Scripture facts on Bethabara. Bible encyclopedia for study of the Bible.

www.biblestudytools.com

 

[Lulav]

BETHABARA

beth-ab'-a-ra beth`abharah; (Bethabara, "house of the ford"):

Thanks for the correction HARK! a bit of a dyslexic tic I guess!

 

[HARK!]

Madaba Map - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It can get confusing when some folks keep changing the maps, and changing the names.

 

[HARK!]

Thanks for the correction HARK! a bit of a dyslexic tic I guess!

What correction?

To the best of my understanding it was originally called Betharaba, not Bethabara.

 

[Lulav]

@daq @HARK! Thanks for coming to the discussion. So do either of you think Yeshua could have gone to the place near where John Baptized or where the Zadokites hung out?

Also I noticed this:
55 And the Jews' passover was nigh at hand: and many went out of the country up to Jerusalem before the
passover, to purify themselves.

This could perhaps be a clue to the difference in the gospels of dating the Passover that year. If those in Qumran had another calendar and that was perhaps the correct one it would make sense that Yeshua kept the correct one but not the national one where he kept to the Moed.

So chapter 11 starts with
Lazarus, of Bethany was sick
his sisters were Martha and Mary (the one who anointed his feet)
When he had heard therefore that he was sick, he abode two days still in the same place where he was.
(So he wasn't currently in Judea)
Then after that saith he to his disciples, Let us go into Judaea again.
Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen furlongs off
Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.

And the Jews' Passover was nigh at hand: and many went out of the country up to Jerusalem before the Passover, to purify themselves.​

56 Then sought they for Jesus, and spake among themselves, as they stood in the temple, What think ye, that he will not come to the feast?​

57 Now both the chief priests and the Pharisees had given a commandment, that, if any man knew where he were, he should shew it, that they might take him.​

So he was basically being hunted then and he couldn't allow them to take him. Where to go that 'any man' would not give him away?

Chapter 12 shows us the time of year , again.

12 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.

 

[Lulav]

I've estimated it would take under 4 hours to walk from Lazarus' tomb to Barabetha/Qumran.

This was my original post name, I had switched it around

BETHABARA

beth-ab'-a-ra beth`abharah; (Bethabara, "house of the ford"):

you gave the correct name.

What correction?

To the best of my understanding it was originally called Betharaba, not Bethabara.

OK, but that was not the name I switched.

 

[Lulav]

What correction?

To the best of my understanding it was originally called Betharaba, not Bethabara.

In John it's called the latter.


John 1:28 These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.


But Origen, although confessing that in his day nearly all the manuscripts read ἐν Βηθανία, declares that when he journeyed through those parts he did not find any place of that name, but that Bethabara was pointed out as the place where John had baptized; the statement is confirmed by Eusebius and Jerome also, who were well acquainted with the region. Hence, it is most probable that Bethany disappeared after the Apostles' time, and was restored under the name of Bethabara

 

[HARK!]

This map is from 1836:

https://cdn10.bigcommerce.com/s-6n8vpm/products/2675/images/2789600/1836tanner2-068__78650.1485637541.1280.1280.jpg?c=2

I zoomed in on this portion:

 

[HARK!]

In John it's called the latter.


John 1:28 These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.


But Origen, although confessing that in his day nearly all the manuscripts read ἐν Βηθανία, declares that when he journeyed through those parts he did not find any place of that name, but that Bethabara was pointed out as the place where John had baptized; the statement is confirmed by Eusebius and Jerome also, who were well acquainted with the region. Hence, it is most probable that Bethany disappeared after the Apostles' time, and was restored under the name of Bethabara

Beth-`arabhah, one of the cities of Benjamin (Joshua 18:22). If this be correct, the site is in Judea.

Bethabara - International Standard Bible Encyclopedia​

If we go back to the Tanner Map of 1836, that I presented a zoomed portion of in post 10; we'll see that the Betharaba and The Wilderness are both in Judea.

https://cdn10.bigcommerce.com/s-6n8...nner2-068__78650.1485637541.1280.1280.jpg?c=2

Like I said before, this can get confusing.

I don't have this completely figured out yet. It seems that the reality has been distorted through time.

As Betharaba and Bethabara both have meaning in their names; we might gain something by knowing the correct name.

 

[daq]

This map is from 1836:

https://cdn10.bigcommerce.com/s-6n8vpm/products/2675/images/2789600/1836tanner2-068__78650.1485637541.1280.1280.jpg?c=2

I zoomed in on this portion:

View attachment 326749

I found a clearer version of this map at the following link because I was interested, seeing that what you appear to be focusing on is what looks like Betharaba, but is hard to tell in the zoomed image. What peaked my interest was that it looks about where Ephraim was said to be, (from my previous post), anywhere from five to eight miles west of Qumran. When I saw this better map I zoomed the page view to 240%, and it does say "Beth-araba", and lo and behold, it also says Ephraim just above Geliloth and Beth-araba. It's just above where you cut off your image file so I saved a screen shot and circled all three in red. I'll post the link where I found this below the image file.

https://storage.googleapis.com/raremaps/img/xlarge/88295.jpg

 

[Lulav]

And Bethany is close by as well. But could that be Qumran? Seems a bit off to me.

@daq I've used your map and highlighted in Blue the actual location, because the names are so long, now it's easier to see where they are exactly.

I took a guess on where Qumran is located from other maps. It is close but the Betharaba seen on this map is in Benjamin (as is Ephraim and Bethany) and not Judea whereas Qumran is in Judea

 

[daq]

And Bethany is close by as well. But could that be Qumran? Seems a bit off to me.

@daq I've used your map and highlighted in Blue the actual location, because the names are so long, now it's easier to see where they are exactly.

View attachment 326788
I took a guess on where Qumran is located from other maps. It is close but the Betharaba seen on this map is in Benjamin (as is Ephraim and Bethany) and not Judea whereas Qumran is in Judea

Yeah, I seriously doubt that map is perfect, I just thought it was very interesting that the apparent southern city called Ephraim, by the wilderness or desert, was right there above the location where the map-maker placed Beth-araba, (but that doesn't mean he was correct).

If you want to understand about Qumran it isn't about Betharaba, Bethabara, Bethany, or Ephraim, imo. The answer is Dameshek/Damesek because that is the rest (or possibly minḥah) of Shadrak, who is Ḥadrak, who is Ḥananyah, (which from Greek would typically be rendered in English as Ananias).

 

[HARK!]

I took a guess on where Qumran is located from other maps. It is close but the Betharaba seen on this map is in Benjamin (as is Ephraim and Bethany) and not Judea whereas Qumran is in Judea

I would venture to guess that there is a flaw in the map.

(CLV) Jos 15:20
This is the allotment of the stock of the sons of Judah for their families.

It seems that these cities are strung from North to South along the Western coast of the Dead Sea:

(CLV) Jos 15:61
In the wilderness: Beth-arabah, Middin, Secacah,

(CLV) Jos 15:62
Nibshan, the City of Salt, and En-gedi: six cities and their hamlets.

 

[Lulav]

Yeah, I seriously doubt that map is perfect, I just thought it was very interesting that the apparent southern city called Ephraim, by the wilderness or desert, was right there above the location where the map-maker placed Beth-araba, (but that doesn't mean he was correct).

Not disparaging, I think I have some of those old Bible maps around here somewhere.

If you want to understand about Qumran it isn't about Betharaba, Bethabara, Bethany, or Ephraim, imo. The answer is Dameshek/Damesek

Have you come across this?

because that is the rest (or possibly minḥah) of Shadrak, who is Ḥadrak, who is Ḥananyah, (which from Greek would typically be rendered in English as Ananias).

Shadrak - The scribe from the book of Daniel?
Hadrak - The Lebanese Damascus?
Hananyah - Long version of Ananias from Damascus in the wilderness?
Ananias - The one who removed the scales from Sauls' eyes?

Ananias is also listed by Hippolytus of Rome and others as one of the seventy disciples whose mission is recorded in Luke 10:1-20

minhah? I'm confused isn't that a prayer time? You need to be more explanatory daq, I'm just not following.

 

[daq]

Have you come across this?

View attachment 326889

Not sure what that is and all I see is the picture you loaded. Dameshek/Damesek has several meanings apart from even the more modern Arabic meaning, (some say, "well watered"). One meaning is "blood inheritor", (possessor or inheritor is found in Gen 15:2, (H4943 מֶשֶׁק mesheq), and is rendered as steward in the KJV), while another meaning is dam, (blood), and saq/seq, a sack or sackcloth: a blood sack, or sack of blood.

שַׂק
śaq
BDB Definition:
1) mesh, sackcloth, sack, sacking
1a) sack (for grain)
1b) sackcloth
1b1) worn in mourning or humiliation
1b2) same material spread out to lie on
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H8264

Shadrak - The scribe from the book of Daniel?
Hadrak - The Lebanese Damascus?
Hananyah - Long version of Ananias from Damascus in the wilderness?
Ananias - The one who removed the scales from Sauls' eyes?

In the LXX we find Sedrak for Shadrak in Daniel and the same is Ḥananyah. The same Greek spelling in Daniel reappears in Zekaryah 9:1.

Zechariah 9:1 LXX (Brenton Translation)
1 The burden of the word of the Lord, in the land of Sedrach, and his sacrifice shall be in Damascus; for the Lord looks upon men, and upon all the tribes of Israel.

They were reading מנחתו, (menuḥato), as a minḥah (oblation, offering, sacrifice), rather than the word for rest, which is indeed possible without niqqud, (which would be "his minḥah", and could even be speaking of "his portion"). The thing about Shadrak is that after the three friends of Daniel overcome in the fiery furnace we hear no more about them but we are told that "the king" promoted them in-over the province(s) of Babylon. The story of Tobit is related in that we not only see some of the territory Raphael appears to be set over, but he also states that he is Azaryah of the great Ḥananyah, (and Raphael himself is also called "great" earlier in the book). These are now two of the names of the three friends of Daniel, and the third is almost surely Mikael, whose name in Daniel is Mishael, ("Who is what El is?").

What I have come to understand from these things is that the group which translated Zekaryah into the Greek LXX were either looking at the name Ḥadrak and understood it to mean Shadrak from other sources and reasoning they must have had at their disposal, or they were looking at the actual name Shadrak in the text of Zec 9:1, but either way they understood the name in the passage to be speaking of the Shadrak from Sefer Daniel. It is possible that there were variants in circulation, but, even if not, Ḥadrak contains the name with the exception that the letter shin has been replaced with the letter ḥet from the name Ḥananyah. If the Masoretes had a choice they chose Ḥadrak, probably because that name was more prevailent, but in the end that's not a bad thing because we have two main sources from which to gather information. The reason the LXX likely reads menuḥato as a minḥah is because they are reading Shadrak and apparently believed his offering, oblation, or portion, is Dameshek, (when the eye of man and all the tribes of Yisrael are unto the Most High).

Now, since Shadrak is Ḥananyah, what does the name Ḥananyah mean? I am quite sure you know that it means Grace of Yah. The question is, should we understand this symbolism to mean the Grace of Yah resting on the "Sack of Blood" (which every man is, that is, Damesek, a skin-sack of blood), or should we understand it as meaning the Grace of Yah resting on the "Blood Inheritor"? Also, is it rest? (mnuḥah) or an offering, (minḥah)? The waw is not used in this construct in the Hebrew text.

Ananias is also listed by Hippolytus of Rome and others as one of the seventy disciples whose mission is recorded in Luke 10:1-20

Did I mention that if Mishael is Mikael, and Azaryah is Raphael, then surely Ḥananyah is Gabriel?
I hope I haven't made this whole thing thoroughly confusing.

 

[Lulav]

Not sure what that is and all I see is the picture you loaded.

https://jbqnew.jewishbible.org/jbq-past-issues/2017/453/meaning-damesek-eliezer/

 

[daq]

https://jbqnew.jewishbible.org/jbq-past-issues/2017/453/meaning-damesek-eliezer/

Thanks, interesting article. Everything changes once you realize me'eh is also used figuratively for the heart or "inward parts". If you read Gen 15:2-5 this way it ends up reading the opposite way from how it is commonly understood according to the physical.

Genesis 15:2-5
2 And Abram said, Adonai HE WHO IS, what will you give unto me? I walk destitute, and the son of the possession [meshek, inheritor] of my house is Dammeshek [blood inheritor] Eliezer.
3 And Abram said, Behold, unto me you have given no seed: and behold, the son of my house is disinheriting me.
4 And behold, the Word of HE WHO IS came unto him, saying, This one shall not be your heir: but he that shall come forth from your own inward parts, [mim'eika] he shall be your heir.
5 And He brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward the heavens, and count the stars if you are able to number them: and He said to him, Thus shall your seed be.

So then, is the holy seed physical and by blood? or is it spiritual and by faith/belief? I hate to say it too loudly here but it seems to me that this passage can be read either way. Perhaps it was written this way intentionally: I think so, and I think the Tzaddokim at Dameshek (Qumran) had some similar form of understanding concerning this, if not the same.

 

[Lulav]

I think there are many things like this in the Bible. Some are tests, and others are obfuscation to keep the adversary from knowing the whole playbook.