Did this really happen?

Deamiter · Feb 6, 2007

So... being deceived about the price of a loaf of bread IS as dangerous as being deceived about the way to salvation...

So do you believe that the holy spirit guides people in all things including the price of a loaf of bread? You seem to claim that we not only can know anything by direct revelation from the holy spirit, but that we SHOULD (and since the holy spirit has told you how to interpret Genesis 1, we should agree with you if we are informed by the holy spirit).

I mean, do you claim to be directly informed on every issue (has ANYBODY been made incapable of deception by the holy spirit) and if not, why do you (collectively, YECs) fall back on claiming that TEs are deceived as Assyrian asked a number of posts before? Isn't it equally possible that you yourself have been decieved?

KomissarSteve · Feb 6, 2007

novacaine said:
Credentials? To drive out demonic spirits? The credentials I have is that I am a born again Christian who Christ has endowed His power in me, to do His works whether it be casing out demons, speaking the gospel to non-believers, discipling believers or caring for hurt and lonely people.

So in other words, your credentials are no better than mine when I say no, you're wrong, there isn't a "spirit of intellectualism" and there isn't inherently anti-God about using one's God-given reason.

Oh, and everyone should read Rion's quote of St. Augustine, because it applies even more today than it did then. I'm firmly of the belief that Biblical literalism is the number one thing that turns people in the Western World away from Christ - and, that being the case, it is an inexcusable position to hold.

pastorkevin73 · Feb 6, 2007

KomissarSteve said:
So in other words, your credentials are no better than mine when I say no, you're wrong, there isn't a "spirit of intellectualism" and there isn't inherently anti-God about using one's God-given reason.

Oh, and everyone should read Rion's quote of St. Augustine, because it applies even more today than it did then. I'm firmly of the belief that Biblical literalism is the number one thing that turns people in the Western World away from Christ - and, that being the case, it is an inexcusable position to hold.

No the number one thing that turns people away from Christ is selfishness.

KomissarSteve · Feb 6, 2007

pastorkevin73 said:
No the number one thing that turns people away from Christ is selfishness.

How can it be selfishness? They don't have any reason to believe that a loving God exists; so many on the Christian Right are too busy telling them that God hates the things they like doing, and that they're going to Hell for believing things that, frankly, far saner minds have told them about the origins of the world.

They may be ignorant, but it's ignorance reinforced by judgmental hypocrites who claim to be Christians.

artybloke · Feb 7, 2007

I agree, Komissar. The biggest thing that turns people away from Christ is fundamentalism. They don't want to be identified with a bunch of loud literalists who wouldn't know science from a hole in the ground.

gluadys · Feb 7, 2007

Anyone here read Chris Hedges book on American fundamentalism--or as he prefers to call it "dominionism"? It is called _American Fascists_ and traces the similarities of the American Religious Right to fascist movements.

I heard an interview with him on TV last night and it was quite interesting.

novacaine · Feb 8, 2007

KomissarSteve said:
So in other words, your credentials are no better than mine when I say no, you're wrong, there isn't a "spirit of intellectualism" and there isn't inherently anti-God about using one's God-given reason.

Oh, and everyone should read Rion's quote of St. Augustine, because it applies even more today than it did then. I'm firmly of the belief that Biblical literalism is the number one thing that turns people in the Western World away from Christ - and, that being the case, it is an inexcusable position to hold.

How much do you actually know about spiritual warfare?

pastorkevin73 · Feb 8, 2007

KomissarSteve said:
How can it be selfishness? They don't have any reason to believe that a loving God exists; so many on the Christian Right are too busy telling them that God hates the things they like doing, and that they're going to Hell for believing things that, frankly, far saner minds have told them about the origins of the world.

They may be ignorant, but it's ignorance reinforced by judgmental hypocrites who claim to be Christians.

I'm saying that it is selfishness that rejects Jesus and the gospel, not how the gospel is presented to the person.

pastorkevin73 · Feb 8, 2007

artybloke said:
I agree, Komissar. The biggest thing that turns people away from Christ is fundamentalism. They don't want to be identified with a bunch of loud literalists who wouldn't know science from a hole in the ground.

What makes you think that all literalists are fundamentalists?

KomissarSteve · Feb 8, 2007

pastorkevin73 said:
I'm saying that it is selfishness that rejects Jesus and the gospel, not how the gospel is presented to the person.

If someone presented the "Gospel" to them in a hateful, judgmental way, which seems to be your strategy, then they aren't really presenting the Gospel to them, and the non-Christian isn't actually rejecting Jesus and the Gospel. You, by your presentation of the Gospel, evoke all of the evil things that people purporting to be Christians in the past have done. THAT is what the rejecting non-Christian is actually rejecting.

The responsibility does not lie with him or her; it lies with you.

novacaine said:
How much do you actually know about spiritual warfare?

Enough to know that what you're preaching is complete hogwash. That's not the way the Devil interacts in our lives.

The Devil can only do one thing to us, and that is to make us doubt God's Love. His is the voice that tells us when we have sinned, "No...don't even try asking for forgiveness. You're too sullied by this point to receive His Grace. God doesn't love you, so don't even try."

To say that there is a "spirit of intellectualism" that we need to beware of is, frankly, blasphemous, from my point of view, because it spurns that gift which truly makes us created in God's image: our ability to reason. There is, indeed, great danger in believing that one's empirical observations are the end-all-be-all of reality, but to act like it's an infernal innovation is, frankly, quite silly, in my opinion. The Ten Commandments tell us not to make gods of ourselves. It is of this sin that I believe folks like Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris are most-guilty, not-so-subtley implying that their senses and brains are so keenly-attuned to the universe that they've got it all figured out. But again, it's no demon that brings them to this point. It's something far more dangerous than demonic intervention - it's hubris, mankind's overwhelming pride for his own (relatively minor) accomplishments, and the temptation for him to declare himself a god for it.

In short, let's not dream up an unnecessary set of enemies for humanity. Mankind is already enough of a threat to itself.

pastorkevin73 · Feb 8, 2007

KomissarSteve said:
If someone presented the "Gospel" to them in a hateful, judgmental way, which seems to be your strategy, then they aren't really presenting the Gospel to them, and the non-Christian isn't actually rejecting Jesus and the Gospel. You, by your presentation of the Gospel, evoke all of the evil things that people purporting to be Christians in the past have done. THAT is what the rejecting non-Christian is actually rejecting.

The responsibility does not lie with him or her; it lies with you.

Enough to know that what you're preaching is complete hogwash. That's not the way the Devil interacts in our lives.

The Devil can only do one thing to us, and that is to make us doubt God's Love. His is the voice that tells us when we have sinned, "No...don't even try asking for forgiveness. You're too sullied by this point to receive His Grace. God doesn't love you, so don't even try."

To say that there is a "spirit of intellectualism" that we need to beware of is, frankly, blasphemous, from my point of view, because it spurns that gift which truly makes us created in God's image: our ability to reason. There is, indeed, great danger in believing that one's empirical observations are the end-all-be-all of reality, but to act like it's an infernal innovation is, frankly, quite silly, in my opinion. The Ten Commandments tell us not to make gods of ourselves. It is of this sin that I believe folks like Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris are most-guilty, not-so-subtley implying that their senses and brains are so keenly-attuned to the universe that they've got it all figured out. But again, it's no demon that brings them to this point. It's something far more dangerous than demonic intervention - it's hubris, mankind's overwhelming pride for his own (relatively minor) accomplishments, and the temptation for him to declare himself a god for it.

In short, let's not dream up an unnecessary set of enemies for humanity. Mankind is already enough of a threat to itself.

Based on what you have posted you don't know much about spiritual warfare. I encourage you to do a bible study on satan and demons. Also check out "The Bondage Breaker" by Neil T Anderson.

pastorkevin73 · Feb 8, 2007

KomissarSteve said:
If someone presented the "Gospel" to them in a hateful, judgmental way, which seems to be your strategy, then they aren't really presenting the Gospel to them, and the non-Christian isn't actually rejecting Jesus and the Gospel. You, by your presentation of the Gospel, evoke all of the evil things that people purporting to be Christians in the past have done. THAT is what the rejecting non-Christian is actually rejecting.

You haven't a clue about how I present the gospel. Don't make assumptions. You know little to nothing about me or what I do.

novacaine · Feb 8, 2007

KomissarSteve said:
If someone presented the "Gospel" to them in a hateful, judgmental way, which seems to be your strategy, then they aren't really presenting the Gospel to them, and the non-Christian isn't actually rejecting Jesus and the Gospel. You, by your presentation of the Gospel, evoke all of the evil things that people purporting to be Christians in the past have done. THAT is what the rejecting non-Christian is actually rejecting.

The responsibility does not lie with him or her; it lies with you.

Enough to know that what you're preaching is complete hogwash. That's not the way the Devil interacts in our lives.

The Devil can only do one thing to us, and that is to make us doubt God's Love. His is the voice that tells us when we have sinned, "No...don't even try asking for forgiveness. You're too sullied by this point to receive His Grace. God doesn't love you, so don't even try."

To say that there is a "spirit of intellectualism" that we need to beware of is, frankly, blasphemous, from my point of view, because it spurns that gift which truly makes us created in God's image: our ability to reason. There is, indeed, great danger in believing that one's empirical observations are the end-all-be-all of reality, but to act like it's an infernal innovation is, frankly, quite silly, in my opinion. The Ten Commandments tell us not to make gods of ourselves. It is of this sin that I believe folks like Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris are most-guilty, not-so-subtley implying that their senses and brains are so keenly-attuned to the universe that they've got it all figured out. But again, it's no demon that brings them to this point. It's something far more dangerous than demonic intervention - it's hubris, mankind's overwhelming pride for his own (relatively minor) accomplishments, and the temptation for him to declare himself a god for it.

In short, let's not dream up an unnecessary set of enemies for humanity. Mankind is already enough of a threat to itself.

Responcibility lies with the person who hears the gospel. It is their responcibility to accept, if not they will be held accountible for not accepting the gospel on judgement day.

As for your comments about satan and spiritual warfare, it seems that Satan has convinced you that he and his demons are not at work. So it seems you have accepted the lie. I agree with Pastorkevin as well. Anderson's resources are great. Also check out Doris Wagner's "How to minister Freedom."

Melethiel · Feb 8, 2007

pastorkevin, based on your posts it is pretty obvious that you don't know much about sin and grace. I encourage you to do a bible study on the sinful nature. Also check out "Bondage of the Will" by Martin Luther.

Two can play this game.

Deamiter · Feb 8, 2007

Indeed, and the issue is rather off topic. The claim is that because somebody is more or less educated about spiritual warfare, they are equally capable of properly interpreting Genesis.

If you're making this claim, it's a logical fallacy and has no place in the forum. If you're not making the claim, why are you so quick to assert your superiority on an issue of spiritual warfare when we should be discussing a consistant interprative hermeneutic?

KomissarSteve · Feb 8, 2007

novacaine said:
Responcibility lies with the person who hears the gospel. It is their responcibility to accept, if not they will be held accountible for not accepting the gospel on judgement day.

If they have actually heard the Good News, yes. But what many Christians teach non-Christians is not the Gospel; it's a bit of Jesus' biography, as viewed through the judgmental lens of the Old Testament.

As for your comments about satan and spiritual warfare, it seems that Satan has convinced you that he and his demons are not at work.

Oh dear, yes, that must be it.

Did I not just spell out how I believe Satan is out at work in our lives? Seriously. Other posters in this thread besides novacaine and pastorkevin - did I not just say in my previous post that Satan is at work in our lives, and just not in the way that novocaine thinks he is?

pastorkevin: Hmmmmm...no, no, I think I'm going to stay away from ol' Neil Anderson, thank you very much. I tend not to place too much credence in writers who claim that demons actually have sex with humans on a regular basis.

EDIT: The Christian Research Institute puts it very well.

“While Anderson promotes ‘freedom in Christ’ vociferously, his emphasis on the occult from which we are to become free is more noticeable, and is described in more vivid terms in the material he presents in seminars and publications than our freedom. His seven steps to freedom, the core of most of his materials, includes a lengthy recitation of renunciation/announcement statements that focus on blood oaths, marriage to Satan, generational curses, and so on. Nowhere in Scripture do we find a precedent for such a focus.” (“Dr. Neil T. Anderson—Freedom In Christ Ministries,” Christian Research Institute International, Statement No. DA-080, pg. 1.)

EDIT 2: G. Richard Fisher puts it even better: http://www.pfo.org/wdemons.htm

"While Anderson may attribute sinful propensities to our own as well as our ancestors’ demons, the Bible is quite clear in James 1, Mark 7 and Galatians 5 that man sins by himself, from himself, and that there is no exorcistic short-cut. Sanctification is a lifelong struggle."

Enough with the scare tactics, I say. The Holy Spirit is the only defense we need.

pastorkevin73 said:
You haven't a clue about how I present the gospel.

No, actually, you've already given me quite a few clues as to how you present the Gospel. It's very possible that I may not be seeing the whole picture, but thus far, the image I've seen you paint of Christ is far from loving.

Which is rather a blasphemous thing to do, if you think about it, isn't it?

novacaine · Feb 8, 2007

KomissarSteve said:
If they have actually heard the Good News, yes. But what many Christians teach non-Christians is not the Gospel; it's a bit of Jesus' biography, as viewed through the judgmental lens of the Old Testament.

Oh dear, yes, that must be it.

Did I not just spell out how I believe Satan is out at work in our lives? Seriously. Other posters in this thread besides novacaine and pastorkevin - did I not just say in my previous post that Satan is at work in our lives, and just not in the way that novocaine thinks he is?

pastorkevin: Hmmmmm...no, no, I think I'm going to stay away from ol' Neil Anderson, thank you very much. I tend not to place too much credence in writers who claim that demons actually have sex with humans on a regular basis.

EDIT: The Christian Research Institute puts it very well.

While Anderson promotes freedom in Christ vociferously, his emphasis on the occult from which we are to become free is more noticeable, and is described in more vivid terms in the material he presents in seminars and publications than our freedom. His seven steps to freedom, the core of most of his materials, includes a lengthy recitation of renunciation/announcement statements that focus on blood oaths, marriage to Satan, generational curses, and so on. Nowhere in Scripture do we find a precedent for such a focus. (Dr. Neil T. AndersonFreedom In Christ Ministries, Christian Research Institute International, Statement No. DA-080, pg. 1.)

EDIT 2: G. Richard Fisher puts it even better: http://www.pfo.org/wdemons.htm

"While Anderson may attribute sinful propensities to our own as well as our ancestors demons, the Bible is quite clear in James 1, Mark 7 and Galatians 5 that man sins by himself, from himself, and that there is no exorcistic short-cut. Sanctification is a lifelong struggle."

Enough with the scare tactics, I say. The Holy Spirit is the only defense we need.

No, actually, you've already given me quite a few clues as to how you present the Gospel. It's very possible that I may not be seeing the whole picture, but thus far, the image I've seen you paint of Christ is far from loving.

Which is rather a blasphemous thing to do, if you think about it, isn't it?

I look at this post and all I see is .
Again, you don't know anything about spiritual warfare and clearly the same goes for those you have quoted.

Tinker Grey · Feb 8, 2007

Then let me repeat: By all means, please explain how one ascertains/discerns the "spirit of intellectualism".

KomissarSteve · Feb 9, 2007

novacaine said:
I look at this post and all I see is .
Again, you don't know anything about spiritual warfare and clearly the same goes for those you have quoted.

Well, the sentiment is mutual, believe me - although the sentiment that I feel is a little more based on the fact that your view of spiritual warfare centers upon the cosmology of a guy who's obviously a quack.

Assyrian · Feb 9, 2007

novacaine said:
Responcibility lies with the person who hears the gospel. It is their responcibility to accept, if not they will be held accountible for not accepting the gospel on judgement day.

You ignore the fact that those who bring the gospel into disrepute, or cause people to stumble will also be held responsible on that day.

People's responsibility to respond to the gospel in no way negates our responsibility as its representatives. I am happy to leave it with God to say who had a genuine exposure to the gospel and who didn't. I just wouldn't want to be found to be one of the reasons the gospel was held in disrepute.

Rom 2:24 For, as it is written, "The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."
1Tim 6:1 (&Titus 2:5) Let all who are under a yoke as slaves regard their own masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be reviled.
Matt 18:6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to stumble, it would be better for him that a huge millstone should be hung around his neck, and that he should be sunk in the depths of the sea.
7 "Woe to the world because of occasions of stumbling! For it must be that the occasions come, but woe to that person through whom the occasion comes!

Tinker Grey said:
Then let me repeat: By all means, please explain how one ascertains/discerns the "spirit of intellectualism".

When you know what the Word of God says, and you have seen how the Word is supported by godly bible based science. Then someone comes along with worldly arguments, science and reason, and demolish creation science you know must be true because it is in agreement with the word of God. It is a simple process of elimination. Either God's word is untrue or there is a powerful deception at work.

Of course it leaves out the third possibility, that the word of God is true but they misunderstand it, and the deep grief they feel inside is not some sort of spiritual discernment, the the pain of cognitive dissonance.

Did this really happen?

I just follow Christ.

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