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Assyrian

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Because the Bible is God's living, perfect and complete revelation. Once one realizes that, how can one entertain anything that is contrary to that?
Because your interpretation is not is God's living, perfect and complete revelation. And where it has got things wrong it should be open to correction.



I have given examples of Luther (and we can add in Calvin and Melanchthon who also believed the bible taught geocentrism). I have mentioned believers who came to the Lord in the revivals of the Great Awakening. I don't know how you feel about Seventh Day Adventist, but if you think they are a cult you should certainly reject the YEC movement and that grew out of Adventism.

You think you shouldn't learn from the mistake the Jews made when their promised Messiah came?

I find it odd you quote 1Cor 2:14. If you think your interpretation of Genesis is infallible and that you are not subject to the mistakes non Christians make (though I have been looking at plenty of Christian mistakes), what makes you think your interpretation is the Holy Spirit Inspired one when non Christians, even atheists read the same six day timetable in Genesis as you do?

I don't recall a biblically based argument we've had, please enlighten further.
Didn't I point out that the 'six days' in Exodus 20 are in the middle of a metaphor and that we have as much reason to interpret them literally as we do God's 'mighty hand and out stretched arm' found in the same place in the 10 commandments in Deuteronomy.

I am sure I pointed out Psalm 90 where Moses takes a very non literal approach to God's days, or the fact that no one else in the whole bible mentions the subject. That the only day of the creation week mentioned anywhere else in the bible is the seventh day and that it wasn't interpreted literally when mentioned by either Jesus or the writer of Hebrews?

They should have opened their hearts to God and He would have revealed the Truth to them, sadly, most didn't. Given that their efforts were man-centered instead of God-centered they failed miserably, as it will be with us when we do likewise.
No they were too busy defending the word of God and their interpretation of it with their own unfailing determination.
They swallowed all the arguments, the hermeneutical systems, the interpretations, until they believed those interpretation were the Word of God.

Are you saying you are immune to making this kind of mistake? If you are not immune, then answer the question, what would you have done when confronted with extrabiblical evidence that your interpretation was disastrously wrong. There are only three choices, choices that face young Christians in droves today wen they go to college and confront the evidence. They can give up on Christianity, trust in God and go back to the bible to see where they had gone wrong, or deny the plain facts and fervently cling to their interpretation.

If you wish to believe that the Seventh Day Adventists gave us the unshakable doctrine of a young earth please go right ahead and believe.
Modern YECism was kick started by Henry Morris and his book the Genesis Flood. But flood geology wasn't Morris's idea, it came from George McCready Price a Seventh Day Adventist. Fundamentalism had accepted the scientific evidence for the age of the earth and had gone back to their bibles. Their interpretations of Genesis were Day Age or Gap. It was only the influence of the SDA and then Morris who drew his flood geology from Price that gave us modern YEC.

That falls right in line with folks who are easily susceptible to accepting all sorts of extra biblical evidence as the truth.
Extra biblical evidence is truth. It is true that Christ did not return in 1844. It is true the earth rotates and orbits the sun. It is true the earth is billions of years old. Why shouldn't I accept extra biblical evidence. Or if I am to ignore the evidence, should I ignore it all, or just some of it. Are you the one to tell me which extrabiblical evidence should influence me and which should not?

No one has all the answers, Luther didn't, I don't and neither do you. We all make mistakes, but at least Luther based his on what he sincerely thought the Bible said.
Amen. And he was wrong. And the Lutherans and Calvinists looked at the evidence, realised their mistake, and went back to scripture to see where they had gone wrong.
 
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vossler

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Because your interpretation is not is God's living, perfect and complete revelation. And where it has got things wrong it should be open to correction.
Because no one's 'interpretation' of the Bible is true we need an outside source that's complete to play referee. That's the mantra of those who don't accept the truths of the Bible. It isn't sufficient to explain itself and needs the assistance of 'science' to make it complete. Essentially the Bible is a subjective book and thereby is impotent.
It is truly fascinating to see the incredible focus placed on whether people of old saw our world as geocentric or heliocentric. I would submit that it played no real role in Luther's or Calvin's life and it certainly doesn't play one in my life. Somehow TEs can't let that one go, it's their only claim to legitimacy it seems. It is a most fascinating thing to observe.
You think you shouldn't learn from the mistake the Jews made when their promised Messiah came?
Did I say that?
Again, did I say that? What I thought I said or pointed out was that you don't go to people who are not Christians as a source for knowledge of the Scriptures; at least I don't.
I can't find a single commentary that states the six days in Exodus 20 are metaphoric. I'm sure one exists somewhere, I'm just saying I haven't come across it yet. You know before coming here I never even knew people actually thought in the ways of many here, in order to do so one has to open the Bible to a subjective interpretation. That's something not easily done and probably why you just don't see respected commentaries using that approach. There isn't a single shred of biblical evidence to lay claim that the six days were metaphoric and no matter how many times someone claims otherwise it's still the evidence that matters.

It is abundantly clear to see that Moses, when speaking of God, knows that time in no constraint for almighty God. The argument that Moses takes a very non-literal approach to God's days here does nothing to disprove Genesis or Exodus from being literal days. If anything it supports it. It shows that God was painstakingly deliberate when describing creation when He gave each day a number and an evening and a morning. Then when He was not, as in Psalm 90, He demonstrated how He is beyond our constraints.
No they were too busy defending the word of God and their interpretation of it with their own unfailing determination.
Yes, they were hypocrites of the first order. They didn't know God and they certainly didn't have intimate discussions with Him. 2 Timothy 3: 1 - 9 sums up today's version of the Pharisee or Jew.
But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith. But they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all, as was that of those two men.
They swallowed all the arguments, the hermeneutical systems, the interpretations, until they believed those interpretation were the Word of God.
Beyond that, they were, first and foremost, lovers of self. When a person loves self above God their hermeneutics easily become skewed and untrustworthy.

I'm immune as long as I know to keep God's Word above everything else. Once I open the door to science or anything else taking precedence over God's Word then I too will fall victim to those mistakes. BTW, there is a fourth choice, they can open their eyes and see the facts which are suppose to be so plain are actually hardly so.
I don't know this history of which you speak all that well so let's assume everything you just stated is correct. That doesn't change the fact that before the 17th and 18th century the vast majority of Christians believed in a young earth so the doctrine of a young earth predates all the people you mentioned.
I have no problem with extra biblical evidence, that is, as long as it doesn't contradict Scripture itself. Much of what you call evidence I call conjecture and speculation. I ignore only the 'evidence' that can't be objectively proven.

Hey, you can believe and trust all the extra biblical evidence you want, that's your free choice. The only 'evidence' I ignore is the subjective stuff built on conjecture and speculation, I would hope that you did too. It would be nice if more people did that instead of blindly accepting what someone, who is highly educated and arrogantly confident in his/her knowledge tells them. It's when you choose to believe things that are biblically unsound that your credibility should be challenged and if the error in judgment is ignored and not admitted that we are to finally dismiss it as heresy.
 
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pastorkevin73

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What makes you think that your and other TEs interpreation is correct.

We know that TEs got the interpreation of Genesis one. Read Exodus 20 and read what God says to Moses and Israel about the time frame of creating the universe as He gives the ten commandments.
 
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Assyrian

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What makes you think that your and other TEs interpreation is correct.
I never made such a claim.

We know that TEs got the interpreation of Genesis one. Read Exodus 20 and read what God says to Moses and Israel about the time frame of creating the universe as He gives the ten commandments.
Exodus 20:8 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates.
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.


Now read the same commandment from the Ten Commandments in Deuteronomy

Deut 5:12 "'Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you.
13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter or your male servant or your female servant, or your ox or your donkey or any of your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you.

15 You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.

If the six days in Exodus 20:11 have to be literal, then what about God's 'mighty hand and an outstretched arm'? Both references are used to illustrate the Sabbath command, both refer to literal events, the Creation and the Exodus. But Deuteronomy uses anthropomorphic language to describe God's actions. Is there any reason to insist the description in Exodus is completely different and has to be interpreted literally?

To find out how literal the description in Exodus is have a look at there the command is repeated a few chapters on.

Exodus 31:16 Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever.
17 It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.'"


God was refreshed after taking the day off, just like the weary labourers we read of in Exodus 23:12 Six days you shall do your work, but on the seventh day you shall rest; that your ox and your donkey may have rest, and the son of your servant woman, and the alien, may be refreshed.

God wasn't tired after six days hard work creating the universe. God doesn't get tired. He wasn't literally refreshed after having a rest. What he was doing is identifying with the servants and the foreigners in an utterly beautiful metaphor. It is another anthropomorphism like the one in Deuteronomy. Your six day time frame is found slap in the middle of this metaphor.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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What makes you think that your and other TEs interpreation is correct.

i think roughly 30% of what i think is true, is in fact, not true. i won't even hazard a guess as to how much i think is wrong isn't. my only claim is to have thought about the issues and to know how to spell interpretation, not to have a correct one.

especially not if by correct you mean more than the preponderance of the evidence standard. i am painfully aware of being wrong, often and consistently, and am frankly surprised that others don't have this same experience. perhaps they are unaware of being wrong, i don't know. but i for one have never made a claim to be right, only interested and willing to study the issues.
 
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Assyrian

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Our understanding of scripture is at best partial 1Cor 13:9-12 and at worst plain wrong. If our limited understanding of scripture comes up with interpretations that say something about natural world, why shouldn't these statements be checked against science?

The sad thing is your refusal to learn from the mistakes of men of God in the past. The debate over heliocentrism played the same role in the church as YEC does today. You are right. Heliocentrism shouldn't have been an issue. Neither should the age of the earth and evolution today.

Did I say that?
You dismissed them as 'no different than the atheist in this regard.'

Again, did I say that? What I thought I said or pointed out was that you don't go to people who are not Christians as a source for knowledge of the Scriptures; at least I don't.
No you don't. You ignore them. You think you have the Holy Spirit inspired interpretation and even quote 1 Corinthians 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. This verse says if the Spirit of God has given you understanding of Genesis, then you understanding should be different from that of the natural man. Yet YECs and atheists both share the same literalist six day creation interpretation of Gen 1. Go figure.

Who said anything about subjective? But if you do have access to the objective meaning of scripture, please let me know, only you should realise that as an ex Catholic I am rather suspicious of any claims to infallibility.

Well Psalm 90 goes beyond saying God is eternal or unconstrained by time. It tells us in the context of the Creation that a thousand years are as a day in God's sight. But if they won't listen to Moses...

Yes, they were hypocrites of the first order. They didn't know God and they certainly didn't have intimate discussions with Him.
If we start making accusations of hypocrisy who can stand? Isn't it the ultimate hypocrisy to accuse others of hypocrisy? Sadly the holier we try to live our lives the more vulnerable we are to this worst vice.

No the problem for the Jews was pride and an unwillingness to see that their interpretation of Messiah could be wrong.




Now does that sound more like a liberal theologian or a televangelists? Just a thought.


Beyond that, they were, first and foremost, lovers of self. When a person loves self above God their hermeneutics easily become skewed and untrustworthy.
So that's where Luther, Melanchton and Calvin went wrong.

So you keep God's word above everything else, even more than Luther, Melanchton and Calvin did, because you wouldn't have made the mistake of interpreting scripture geocentrically. And this self confidence, even umm pride, keeps you immune from mistakes in interpreting God's word?


And before the 16th century the main interpretation of the Genesis days account was allegorical. There wasn't scientific evidence of an ancient earth, but if there had been they wouldn't have been tripped up by Genesis literalism.

So basically for a few hundreds years we have literal six day creationism, brought in by men of God like Luther and Calvin, who did a wonder work restoring the freedom of the gospel to the church, but who also stood staunchly for geocentrism

Extra biblical evidence cannot contradict the word of God. God created the world and spoke to us through the bible. God isn't going to contradict himself. But if extra biblical evidence contradicts our interpretation of God's word, then we can be pretty sure it is our interpretation that is at fault.
 
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pastorkevin73

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Indirectly, because you say that another persons interpretation is not correct.
 
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pastorkevin73

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Read the context again. After reading both scriptural passages and reading what you have written doesn't compute. Sorry, try again!
 
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vossler

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That would be nice and I would certainly agree with your thought as long as, and this is the critical part, the science being used is objective and verifiable. Adaption meets that criteria, evolution as we know it doesn't.
The mistakes of geocentrism and it's role in the church were minimal, they certainly had nothing to do with our understanding of God and our relationship with him. I would even agree that the age of the earth fits that description, but evolution most certainly doesn't. It contradicts many fundamental biblical truths. With evolution I don't see how you can have Adam and Eve as anything but mythical figures and that in and of itself would contradict a foundational tenet of Scripture.
You dismissed them as 'no different than the atheist in this regard.'
That's true, but that doesn't mean I can't learn from them.
I don't ignore them, I just don't allow they're interpretation of Scripture to carry nearly as much weight as someone who is Holy Spirit filled. 1 Corinthians 2:14 doesn't say all things of the Spirit are spiritually discerned. If so, no one would ever become a Christian. BTW, the atheists only shares the YEC interpretation of Scripture because they think its folly and helps prove their own evolutionary views, it certainly isn't because they in anyway believe it. That's quite a difference, don't you think?
Who said anything about subjective? But if you do have access to the objective meaning of scripture, please let me know, only you should realise that as an ex Catholic I am rather suspicious of any claims to infallibility.
When you introduce outside ideas into an infallible text that clearly states something contrary to the plain meaning, I'd say it is going to be subjective. Given your suspicions of infallibility I don't think we're going to get very far here.
Well Psalm 90 goes beyond saying God is eternal or unconstrained by time. It tells us in the context of the Creation that a thousand years are as a day in God's sight. But if they won't listen to Moses...
Wow you sure know how to go long and run with a text, fortunately there isn't less that 10 seconds left in the fourth quarter so you don't have to heave the hail mary yet. Given your previous catholic reference, I couldn't help myself.
If we start making accusations of hypocrisy who can stand? Isn't it the ultimate hypocrisy to accuse others of hypocrisy? Sadly the holier we try to live our lives the more vulnerable we are to this worst vice.
So we're not ever to accuse others of hypocrisy? Is it verboten?
No the problem for the Jews was pride and an unwillingness to see that their interpretation of Messiah could be wrong.
Sure pride was a major issue for them, I won't disagree one bit. Pride is self-centeredness being vividly portrayed.
Now does that sound more like a liberal theologian or a televangelists? Just a thought.
Both.
So that's where Luther, Melanchton and Calvin went wrong.
All of us go wrong.
I probably would have made the same mistake. I don't have a problem admitting that. I know for a fact I've made many other mistakes in the past interpreting God's Word, most of those primarily out of ignorance. Even now I know there are areas of Scripture that I don't know as well as I should and what I do know could be wrong. The thing is I don't publicly claim to know either. I don't advertise my ignorance. Here's the thing, whenever I have made a mistake, it was always shown or proven through the Bible that a mistake was made. I haven't had a single biblical view proven wrong without the Bible being the primary source of correction. I hope to keep it that way.
And before the 16th century the main interpretation of the Genesis days account was allegorical. There wasn't scientific evidence of an ancient earth, but if there had been they wouldn't have been tripped up by Genesis literalism.
My experience of reading history doesn't support that at all.
So basically for a few hundreds years we have literal six day creationism, brought in by men of God like Luther and Calvin, who did a wonder work restoring the freedom of the gospel to the church, but who also stood staunchly for geocentrism
They were men, just like you and I. I don't have a problem with that, I truly don't know why you do. If this is true then I'm guessing you're discounting the rest of their work too since it hasn't been proven via science.
Extra biblical evidence cannot contradict the word of God.
Now that's something I can agree with 100%
God created the world and spoke to us through the bible. God isn't going to contradict himself. But if extra biblical evidence contradicts our interpretation of God's word, then we can be pretty sure it is our interpretation that is at fault.
Why is it that the extra biblical evidence couldn't be at fault?
 
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rmwilliamsll

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google some of the well written geocentric sites:
http://www.geocentricity.com/ba1/fresp/index.html

The second of these two concerns: how the Bible's authority is weakened by heliocentrism; stems from the firm manner in which the Bible teaches geocentricity.
from: WHY GEOCENTRICITY?
Gerardus D. Bouw, Ph.D.
same website: http://www.geocentricity.com/

The only reason you don't find the geocentric arguments persuasive is that you have been too deeply infected by modern science to see that Copernicus was the first real Darwinist, challenging the central position of humanity in the universe as a prelude to throwing God out of astronomy.
(well don't read too much geocentrics *grin*)


the dominant hermenetics was called the 4 fold way.
the least important of the 4 methods was the literal, it was only with Luther's rejection of the 4 fold way and the preference for the literal that Biblical interpretation began to look at the allegorical method as anything but the real way that God was communicating via Scripture.

a moment googling yields a number of good essays on the four fold hermeneutics.

even the wiki has some good stuff on it
from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneutics#History_of_Western_hermeneutics

the reason for quoting this paragraph is to supply a group of words to google for more study on the issues of the history of hermeneutics.

although they(the wiki writers) see the medieval flourishing not the Augustinian and Greek roots. but the issue is the same, only with Luther is this dominant hermeneutic challenged. And modern fundamentalists and evangelicals are throughly Lutheran in this contention that the literal is primary to the only way to read Scripture, both the RC and GO preserve more of the ancient ways.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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What makes you think that your and other TEs interpreation is correct?

I never made such a claim.

Indirectly, because you say that another persons interpretation is not correct.

for person A to claim that person B is not right makes no claim by A concerning the truthfulness of A's claims, not even indirectly. The only way it can even be close is if together A and B's claims exhaust the domain and are mutually exclusive. Only then is a claim by A that B is wrong make any claim about A's correctness on A's behalf. YECism and TE are not mutually exhaustive of the potential Christian stances on origins and evolution so this is not the case here. Actually neither are they mutually exclusive, sharing many principles.


but i suppose this is an example of "thinking too hard" again.
 
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Assyrian

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Indirectly, because you say that another persons interpretation is not correct.
That doesn't follow.


Read the context again. After reading both scriptural passages and reading what you have written doesn't compute. Sorry, try again!
The context is Sabbath observance. Reference to a six day creation occur in illustrations of the Sabbath command not in the context of teaching about creation. Is there any reason an illustration of Sabbath observance cannot employ figurative descriptions? The illustration used to explain the Sabbath in Deuteronomy said God has arms and hands. Do you think that is literal? Do you think God was refreshed after having a day off? Our God is greater than that.
 
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Melethiel

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FWIW, Lutheran theology tends to be a lot more tolerant of allegory and symbolism than Luther himself was.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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i came across a section on "The Eucharistic Controversy" in a chapter titled: Zurich Contra Wittenberg in the book Christ's Churches Purely Reformed: A Social History of Calvinism by Benedict that is about the discussion here concerning how Luther changed the way people (now called Protestants) viewed Scripture.

pg 33

Protestants, because in general they have a very shallow understanding of history, often thing that their particular ideas are simply those expressed in the Bible and that people consistently believed this same way since the 1stC, are often unaware of just how revolutionary this Lutheran hermeneutic was. These words could have been uttered today by almost any Protestant, yet until Luther no one in the history of the Church thought this way. The allegorical method was the primary way to interpret Scripture, inherited from the 1stC Jews and only begun to be challenged in the Antiochian school's literal hermeneutic starting in the 5thC. This common sense, literal, man in the pew hermeneutic is not only a child of the Reformation but is a child of the humanist Renaissance as well, with it's accent on the text and rather than levels of interpretation a single plain interpretation accessible to reason.

anyhow, i thought others listening to this thread might find this paragraph about Luther interesting and have some insight into why i continually point out "this is my body" as a big issue for the literal hermeneutic for it seriously broke down at this point and that is why there are at least 3 major ways Protestants take the verse, for RC's camped out on the literal one, making Protestants have to diverge from their precious literal interpretation on a key passage. and how to diverge split the very first generation of Reformers.
 
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gluadys

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Because the Bible is God's living, perfect and complete revelation. Once one realizes that, how can one entertain anything that is contrary to that?

You know the bible itself never claims to be a complete revelation, but rather a sufficient revelation. Remember what John says in his gospel? That much more could be written, enough that all the books in the world could not contain the fulness of the revelation of Jesus--but what has been written was written so that we might believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and believing in him, we might have life.

This was the claim of the Reformers as well--not that the bible contained a complete revelation, but that it contained a sufficient revelation, such that the oral tradition of the Church was not a necessary supplement to scripture as the Catholic teachers claimed.

This idea that the bible is not just sufficient, but complete, sounds more to me like the Islamic attitude toward the Qur'an, than traditional Christian theology. Another example of Muslim theology infiltrating Christianity.


No one has all the answers, Luther didn't, I don't and neither do you. We all make mistakes, but at least Luther based his on what he sincerely thought the Bible said.

Vossler, I am surprised by the arrogance and judgmentalism you are displaying here. Yes, the Millerites were mistaken about the return of Christ in 1844. And Luther was mistaken in some of his beliefs too. Yet you excuse Luther since he based his beliefs "on what he sincerely thought the bible said".

What makes you claim the Millerites could not have been just as sincere in basing their beliefs on what they honestly believed the bible said? Why do you assume they were hypocrites who were controlled by the flesh or non-biblical theologies or had not made sure, as far as they could, that this idea was supported by scripture?

The idea of a return in 1844 has as much biblical support as Ussher's chronology of a young earth. Miller believed he had discovered the date through his study of scripture and Millerite writings are replete with scriptural references. Thousands of people were convinced by checking out those scriptures in their own bibles. And they were sincere enough in their beliefs to sell all they owned to be ready for the kingdom of heaven. That is not a sign of hypocrisy.

Yes, they were wrong, but what, prior to 1844, could have told them they were wrong? Bible study? They excelled in bible study. Openness to the Holy Spirit? They thought they were, that the Holy Spirit had guided them to the truth through scripture.

I don't think you have a right to brush off the Millerites on the basis you have. To me, they seem much more like a Luther, whose errors were based on what they "sincerely believed the bible said". I don't think you have grounds for saying otherwise. And I am very disappointed in you to see this uneven-handed treatment of them.

You know, I would love to hear you engage in a serious conversation with a Jehovah's Witness (like the SDA a descendant of the Millerites). I learned a lot about them from my grandmother and an aunt I was close to who both belonged to that sect, and I have read a lot of their literature and even participated in bible studies with them. I know that they study the scriptures assiduously. In fact, I have met very few Christians who know their bible half as well as the average JW.

Do I think JWs are wrong in their beliefs? Of course I do. Do I think it is for the reasons you suggested--controlled by the flesh, dominated by non-biblical theology, not making the effort to double check whether their beliefs are supported by scripture? No way. They are no different than Luther in basing their erroneous beliefs on what they sincerely believe the bible says.
 
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vossler

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I believe it is a complete revelation for mankind. Is there more, obviously, but for man it is complete or if you wish to say sufficient that works to. The bottom line is still the same, nothing is missing.


Jude 3 backs this up when it states:
Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.
gluadys, I'm really surprised you're going down this path of discussion. I'll admit I don't know much about the Millerites beliefs, but then again I don't have to. They may have been sincere well meaning people, but truly that doesn't mean anything. You said:

"but what, prior to 1844, could have told them they were wrong? Bible study? They excelled in bible study. Openness to the Holy Spirit? They thought they were, that the Holy Spirit had guided them to the truth through scripture."


What? How about the Bible itself. They obviously didn't excel in Bible study because if they had they would have read Jesus' own words in Matthew 24:36 concerning the date of His return:
But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.
So yes I believe I have every right to 'brush off' the Millerites and anyone else who professes something clearly against Scripture. Unfortunately, knowing how these discussions go though, I'm sure the next thing I'll hear is: "that's your interpretation Scripture, how do you know that you're right?"
 
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gluadys

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I believe it is a complete revelation for mankind. Is there more, obviously, but for man it is complete or if you wish to say sufficient that works to. The bottom line is still the same, nothing is missing.

No, it is not the same. "Complete" means nothing is missing. "Sufficient" means nothing essential is missing. Different concepts.


Jude 3 backs this up when it states:
Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.

Jude tells us that what was delivered was delivered once for all. He doesn't speak to completeness vs. sufficiency.

gluadys, I'm really surprised you're going down this path of discussion. I'll admit I don't know much about the Millerites beliefs, but then again I don't have to. They may have been sincere well meaning people, but truly that doesn't mean anything.

It means a great deal. It means that people who are sincere, who diligently study the scriptures, who pray for the guidance of the Holy Spirit, can still end up with a misinterpretation of scripture.

Unless you have evidence of such, you have no right to assume that they are not just as serious in their study of scripture as you are. And therefore no reason to assume your interpretation is any more free of error than theirs.


How about reading the whole chapter and putting that verse in context. Just three verses earlier Jesus says "So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates."

"All these things" are enumerated earlier in the chapter. In 2 Thessalonians, also, Paul speaks of things that must occur before Christ's return. You will remember too how Jesus berated the Pharisees for their blindness to the signs of the times.

So although the day and hour are unknown, many Christians have believed that we are to be alert to the signs of Christ's coming and be ready for his arrival. And it is not just sectarians who have taken this road. The whole of Dispensationalism and much Pre-millenianism is of the same character with their continued dissection of the weeks of Daniel and the times of Revelation.

So it is not as simple as a proof-text regarding the unexpected day and hour of his return. Consider, for example, these words of Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5:

Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers and sisters, you do not need to have anything written to you. For you yourselves know very well that the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. When they say "There is peace and security," then sudden destruction will come upon them as labour pains upon a pregnant woman and there will be no escape!. But you, beloved, are not in darkness, for that day to surprise you like a thief, for you are children of the light and of the day; we are not of the night or of darkness.​

Does it not seem here that Paul is saying that it is the unbelievers and those who walk in darkness who will be caught unawares by the Lord's return, but the children of the light will not be? How can that be unless they are awake and alert to the signs Jesus spoke of?

I think there is enough in both Jesus' words and elsewhere in the NT to indicate encouragement to Christians to be alert for signs of Christ's imminent return. At least I cannot see that it is clearly against scripture to seek some indication of when Christ will return, even if the exact day and hour remain in the Father's counsel alone.

It is not something I am interested in pursuing myself. Personally I don't believe in time-setting, even to a particular generation, much less a particular year. But I would not say that a Christian who is interested in these things is going against scripture.
 
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pastorkevin73

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You know the bible itself never claims to be a complete revelation, but rather a sufficient revelation.

This cope-out is always used when one doesn't want to believe the Bible or want to follow parts or the whole of scripture.
 
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vossler

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No, it is not the same. "Complete" means nothing is missing. "Sufficient" means nothing essential is missing. Different concepts.
I understand that's how you see it, again to me they're the same.
Jude tells us that what was delivered was delivered once for all. He doesn't speak to completeness vs. sufficiency.
Once and for all tells me it's all I need and will ever need.
Lots of people are sincere in what they do, sincerely wrong. Atheists are sincere in their beliefs. That isn't justification to hold what they say in any sort of high regard. The same holds true for people who profess to believe in teachings that are clearly not Scriptural. I'm sorrry but anyone who claims to be a student of the Bible and is willing to bet the farm on the date of Christ's return is not someone I'll ever seriously listen to.
Putting the verse into context as you say still doesn't allow for anyone to put a date on Christ's return. That fact doesn't change. Of course we're to be alert, I'm not denying that. We're also to be aware of false teachers, and the Millerites were just that.
I have no argument here, you're right on. We're are called to be ready for the imminent return of our Lord and Savior.
Personally I don't believe in time-setting, even to a particular generation, much less a particular year. But I would not say that a Christian who is interested in these things is going against scripture.
Nor would I.
 
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