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Why are many (all?) ancient civilizations characterized by the building of pyramidal tower?
The Babel Tower does not need to be high. But it represents something which is hard to build, but is made possible by the cooperation of people. Today, it could be something like the space station.
We are building a Tower of Babel today (e.g. the new world trading center at NY?).
Bab-el -"Gate of God"....
Is the tower of babal historically accurate, was it meant to be a story that actually took place? Or is it instead meant/designed to be a metaphor/allegory?
Your thoughts?
The tower was built because God had flooded the Earth and they were trying to defy God in building a Tower to heaven as to deny God from killing them in another flood.
I would probably agree with you in there somewhere about the symbolism of the world trade center.
It cracks me up how many posts here are simple bare assertions, easily seen to be wrong, with no supporting information. I wonder if those posters really expect we'll just believe them, for no reason beyond their own personal aura of blinding awesomeness?
Some examples:
- There is actually very little evidence of anything like proper civilisations before about the time in which the Tower of Babel story would have taken place.
- People have hypothesised dates before about 2500 bc but there is considerable room for error in these hypotheses.
- The Egyptians for example would rewrite their histories with every dynasty and were compulsive liars about history in reality.
- the fossils being discussed could be degraded or warped human ones or examples of lost pre flood biodiversity of human like animals.
Wrt civilisations, they actual evidence shows that many different civilzations developed at different times, many of which were before a time feasible from the flood. A literal reading puts the flood at around 2350 BC. Since 6 people can't build a tower, it would take many centuries to go from there to a population able to take on such a project. While 800 is surely too short, even that conservative number says that any civilization prior to 1600 BC shows problems for the floodists.
Here are some dates, many of which are before 1600 BC:
Some Ancient Civilizations | Infoplease.com
Yes.100 years is plenty of time for three young men to procreate aplenty. Shem was even still alive when Abraham walked the earth.
Shem was born when Noah was 500 years old.Jasher Chapter 13 - The Book of Jasher Published by J.H. Parry & Company 1887
At that time, at the end of three years of Abram's dwelling in the land of Canaan, in that year Noah died, which was the fifty-eighth year of the life of Abram; and all the days that Noah lived were nine hundred and fifty years and he died.
Jasher Chapter 28 - The Book of Jasher Published by J.H. Parry & Company 1887
24 And it came to pass in those days, in the hundred and tenth year of the life of Isaac, that is in the fiftieth year of the life of Jacob, in that year died Shem the son of Noah; Shem was six hundred years old at his death.
Yes.
Abraham lived with Noah and Shem from age 10 to age 49, when the Tower fell. He lived there to hide from Nimrod.
If it were historical, what do you think the author is saying to his audience?AmericanSoldier91 said:I was in a discussion with some Christians today, and we were talking about the tower of babal, though all of them completely believed it actually happened, i wasn't so sure on whether the story is factually historical truth. I am skeptical to the idea that at one time when humans first had a language, all of humanity existed together at that time. Hasn't there been evidence that humanity already spread out of Africa, in different areas and had different languages before the supposed date of the tower of babel (correct me if im wrong though)? I also think there has been evidence of ancient societies that existed that did not have some language. So it casts doubt for me on whether all of humanity had/spoke the same language. So i want your opinions on this. Is the tower of babal historically accurate, was it meant to be a story that actually took place? Or is it instead meant/designed to be a metaphor/allegory? Your thoughts?
Yes.
Abraham lived with Noah and Shem from age 10 to age 49, when the Tower fell. He lived there to hide from Nimrod.
He came back out from there to his father's house after the fall of the tower and the confounding of the tongue.
The tower fell when Abraham was 49, and Noah died when Abraham was 58; Noah was 600 when the flood came, and 950 when he died, so the flood was 350 years before he died, and the tower was 9 years before he died, and so, the tower was 341 years after the flood.
Jasher Chapter 13 - The Book of Jasher Published by J.H. Parry & Company 1887Shem was born when Noah was 500 years old.
At that time, at the end of three years of Abram's dwelling in the land of Canaan, in that year Noah died, which was the fifty-eighth year of the life of Abram; and all the days that Noah lived were nine hundred and fifty years and he died.
Abraham died age 175.
Abraham died 126 years after the tower fell.
Shem was 441 when the tower fell, and lived to be
Shem outlived Sarah and Abraham, dying 35 years after Abraham died, when Jacob was 49.
Abraham had Isaac when he was 100.
Isaac had Jacob and Esau when he was 60.
Shem died when Jacob was 49 [in his 50th year]. Abraham had died when Jacob was 14 [in his 15th year].
Abraham died 35 years before Shem died.
Isaac died age 180.
Jacob was born to Isaac when he was 60.
Jacob was 120 when Isaac died.
Jacob entered Egypt when he was 127. Joseph was 39.
Isaac died 7 years before, when Joseph was 32.
Joseph went into Egypt age 17. Isaac did not die until Joseph was in Egypt for 15 years.[/quote
So the tower was 341 years after the flood.Jasher Chapter 28 - The Book of Jasher Published by J.H. Parry & Company 1887
24 And it came to pass in those days, in the hundred and tenth year of the life of Isaac, that is in the fiftieth year of the life of Jacob, in that year died Shem the son of Noah; Shem was six hundred years old at his death.
35 years after the tower, Abraham entered Egypt at age 84. Egypt was a thriving city state with a king called Pharaoh ["lord of the dead", because of a man who "taxed the dead" to be buried, and rose to prominence] from that time.
So Egypt already was thriving and it was now nearly 400 years after the flood when Abram entered because of famine. The king at that time was "Osiris" who came to be deified in later hero worship.
Sarah was given a daughter of Pharaoh, Hagar, as handmaid because the king told his daughter that Abraham was a great prophet and she would be well off in his household. Sarah gave her to Abraham as a second wife, and Ishmael was conceived.
From the website The Book of Jasher
FROM THE ORIGINAL HEBREW INTO ENGLISH
[SIZE=-3]"Is not this written in the Book of Jasher?"--Joshua, x. 13.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-3]"Behold it is written in the Book of Jasher."--II. Samuel, i. 18[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-3]SALT LAKE CITY:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-3]PUBLISHED BY J.H. PARRY & COMPANY[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-3]1887.[/SIZE]
This is one of the apocryphal Books of Jasher. There are several (as many as five) separate works by this title, all composed much later than Biblical times. This particular one is a translation of a Hebrew book printed in 1613. Sepir Ha Yasher, the Hebrew title of this book, means the 'Book of the Upright', or 'the Upright or Correct Record'. This title was misread as 'Jasher', and at some point Jasher was treated as a proper name; however the pronoun 'the' (hebrew 'ha') never precedes proper names.
The Real Book of Jasher?All "composed" but one, which is the real Sepher Yasher, which was translated from the Hebrew in the 1600's.
a good link
Book of Jasher Bible - SpeedBible by johnhurt.com
The Authentic Annals Of The Early Hebrews -
Is It The "Real" Book of Jasher?
It is understandable that some may feel that it is impossible or unlikely that this volume could really be the original book of Jasher. The issue is compounded by the existence of several works by the name Sefer Hayasher. I have in my possession a copy of Sefer Hayasher - The Book Of The Righteous, edited and translated by Seymour J. Cohen. It is clearly not a book of history, but an ethical text that was probably written in the 13th century. Its introduction cites several other "Books of Jasher", some of which are no longer known to be in existence, such as that by Zerahiah Ha-Yevani of the 13th century. There is also known to have been one written by Rabbi Jacob ben Mier of the 12th century, and one by Rabbi Jonah ben Abraham of Gerona of the 14th century. We are told of a work by that title from the Amoraim period (3rd to 6th centuries) that is characterized as containing "for the most part sayings of the sages of the first and second centuries". So, this title has been a popular one for rabbinical writings, but most are clearly not intended to have been passed off as the book mentioned in the Bible. There is one notable exception which I will mention later.
The first step in dealing with the question of authenticity is to simply read the book with an open mind. One cannot effectively investigate the matter unless he is familiar with it. After all, according to Solomon, "He who answers a matter before he hears it, It is folly and shame to him". (Proverbs 18:13). The reader will find that it reads very much like the Bible, except that many passages are replete with details that are not recorded in the Bible.
There are digressions from the biblical narrative that show concurrent events in other parts of the world. There are chapters dealing wholly with events in Egypt or events in Europe. Much of this material can be recognized from other works of ancient history. To anyone familiar with ancient history, it will be obvious that Jasher places these events in a radically different time period than do conventional historians. To be sure, if Jasher be true, there needs to be a radical alteration in the conventional interpretation of ancient history, especially in the area of chronology.
There is little of consequence at variance with the Bible. There are some chronological features that differ, but these can usually be attributed to a textual error. Usually the error will be resolved by reading on. A later entry will fall into harmony with the Bible text. Remember that the ancient scrolls of this book were in poor condition when the book was printed in Hebrew in 1613. It is not unlikely that some numbers could get scrambled.
There are a couple mysterious accounts of incidents that smack of Greek or Roman mythology, such as the story of Zepho, the grandson of Esau who slew a half human monster in a large cave. This account is easily recognized as the same story as that of Theseus, who slew the minotaur. The characters and the setting are different. A critical reader may object to this material, but many valid explanations are possible concerning why this and other such events were recorded in this book. The original author may have simply reported those things because they were popular folklore of his day. Such stories are merely mentioned in passing and no significance is attached to them. Though one might doubt the veracity of these tales, there is nothing here that should dissuade an objective reader from the opinion that this book is genuine.Even the most
casual reader will find Jasher enlightening. Accounts in the Bible can be made more lucid and easier to understand with the background of Jasher in mind.
The next issue to investigate in regard to the authenticity of this book is the two passages which mention the book by name. The first is Joshua 10.12-13:
"... and he [Joshua] said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, moon, in the valley of Ajalon. And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is it not written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day. And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the Lord hearkened to the voice of man: for the Lord fought for Israel."And now compare it with the following passage in Jasher 88.63-64:"...and Joshua said in the sight of all the people, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon, and thou moon in the valley of Ajalon, until the nation shall have revenged itself upon its enemies... And the sun stood still in the midst of the heavens, and it stood still six and thirty moments, and the moon also stood still and hastened not to go down a whole day. And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the Lord hearkened to the voice of man, for the Lord fought for Israel."A comparison of the text preceding also shows a high degree of correlation, indicating that much more than a couple of verses was probably quoted by the Bible writer. A second mention of the Book of Jasher occurs in II Samuel 1.17. In contrast, this incident is not a direct quotation of a historical event from Jasher, as is the case in Joshua. Jasher's narrative ends long before the time of David. However, as part of his lamentation over the death of Saul and Jonathan, David referred to a comment by Jacob that is quoted in the Book of Jasher. He said:
"Also he bade them teach the children of Judah the use of the bow: Behold it is written in the book of Jasher."David is referring to the dying words of Jacob to Judah in Jasher 56:9,"...only teach thy sons the use of the bow and all weapons of war, in order that they may fight the battles of their brother who will rule over his enemies."This passage in the Bible has no reference to anything in the Bible itself, but it is made clear from the passage in Jasher.While the above two references pass the test, it will be up to the reader to satisfy himself as to the general agreement of the entirety of the book with the Bible narrative. This is such an extensive comparison, and such an obvious one, that I will not attempt to make any verse by verse comparison. Certainly any reader who is familiar with the Bible will recognize its similarity to the text of Jasher.
There probably is no way that we can know that the Biblical writer(s) quoted from this book, rather than the other way around? Is it possible that this book was reverse engineered? Perhaps that Book of Jasher from the Amoraim period was compiled from rabbinic sources such that it is a kind of digest of rabbinic traditions. Indeed, there is a great deal of commonality with accounts from other midrashic sources. If this were found to be so it would in no way diminish its value.
Is it possible that someone created this book as a clever fraud, by appropriating the name of the Biblical Jasher to give the work credibility? There are, of course, many examples of such pious counterfeits from the early new testament period. Could someone have fabricated this book by incorporating a huge number of additional details into the framework of Bible stories, and do it with such accuracy as to be convincing? It is remotely conceivable that some writer of the rabbinical period could have gathered a vast array of those stories, as are common in rabbinical writings, and incorporated them into this work in a framework to, in some way, add credibility to the stories. But such a scenario seems very unlikely, since rabbinical writings have a great deal of credibility otherwise, and no major effort of promoting this book for that purpose has ever occurred. It is hard to imagine that this book would be counterfeited for that purpose or any other. There is simply no motive for such an act. In any case, if this were true, it is such a masterful job as to be a very valuable work in it's own right. The accuracy and credibility of this supposed Pseudo-Jasher is absolute genius. If this be a forgery it is a marvelous one.
Such a fraudulent writer would not have needed to add so much detail into the account to be convincing. The more details he drew from his imagination, the greater his chances of making some glaring error that would give away his deception. A faker would certainly have written a much shorter work and left out unnecessary details.
In actuality, we have a wonderful example of just such a fraud. I have in my possession three different works that go by the title Sepher Hayasher or The Book of Jasher. This first is, of course, this book. The second is the 13th century ethical treatise that I mentioned earlier. It makes no claim to being the Biblical Jasher and would never be taken for it. The third book is widely recognized for the fraud that it is. It has been republished by the Rosicrucian Order. It claims to have been discovered by Flaccus Albinus Alcuinus, Abbot of Canterbury in the 8th century, while on a pilgrimage. It is the briefest outline of the first six books of the Bible, consisting of about 70 pages of large print. It contains no useful details, and only the barest account of the familiar Hebrew stories. It seems to have been prepared hastily and with little attention to detail. The most obvious feature is that it claims to be the work of a man named Jasher who was the son of Caleb and one of the Judges of Israel. This seems to be its entire reason for existence. It is clear that the author had no real knowledge of Hebrew and failed to recognize that Jasher is not a proper noun. It is not anybody's name. It rather carries the meaning of the upright book or the faithful record. Clearly this book is a fake. It has all the characteristics that you would expect to see in a forgery. It is very brief and contains no unique information except the one thing that is so absurd as to expose it as a hoax. So the contrast between that imitation and this book is very telling. It is easy to see which is genuine.
Finally, consider how Josephus described the Book of Jasher. He said "by this book are to be understood certain records kept in some safe place on purpose, giving an account of what happened among the Hebrews from year to year, and called Jasher or the upright, on account of the fidelity of the annals." There could be no better description of the book you see before you. The bottom line is that you, as the reader, will have to answer the question of legitimacy for yourself. Whichever side of that issue you take, I think that you will be enlightened by exploring the issue and by reading the book. If you feel as I do, that this book has the powerful credentials to commend it as the biblical Book of Jasher, you will now have in your hands an additional source to investigate when studying the Bible. You will also have much food for thought in regard to the issues of conventional chronology in ancient times.
The table of Genesis 10 /1 Chronicles 1 does a good job of showing where the sons of Noah all had wives/sons after things calmed down after the Flood. and spread out...Yes.
Abraham lived with Noah and Shem from age 10 to age 49, when the Tower fell. .
Noah's and Abraham's lives overlapped by many years and that Shem outlived Abraham. This shows a lot of pre-flood information could have been given directly to Abraham.
This one shows that Noah passed away 58 years after the birth of Abraham.
I believe the Story of the Tower of Babel to be very true - as the way mankind spread make more than enough logical sense when seeing the way that the continent was developed....and when considering how brilliant early man was (as shared before here in #2 ), the capacity to build as they did with Babel is not surprising.Is the tower of babal historically accurate, was it meant to be a story that actually took place? Or is it instead meant/designed to be a metaphor/allegory?
Your thoughts?
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