Did the Jews have a chance...?

[JohnMarsten]

In the bible we find a couple of instances in which the Lord hardened the heart of the people (for example Pharao)...

Now I was thinking about the israelites and when you see

Matthew 21:42

‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

you might notice that the builders rejected the chief cornerstone and it is said it as the Lord's doing... I think we can argue about this, but still there is this impression that the whole thing was planned and that they absolutely had to reject it...

furthermore we find

Rom. 11:25b-29 -- Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob, and this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." [Isa. 59:20,21]
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and His call are irrevocable.

In this verse we see that Israels heart has been hardened until the number of Gentiles is complete...

What do you think about all this?

 

[Stryder06]

Couple of verses come to mind:

2Thess 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

God won't force anyone to accept his truth, so when someone has decidedly turned their heart against God, God let's them go. Scripture states this as God hardening their heart, which I believe could be synonymous to God withdrawing His Holy Spirit from said individual, or group of individuals. Thus it's not so much that it was written in stone that Israel would reject God, so much as it was that the nation, for the most part, simply accepted the teachings of men over the words of God, and thus rejected the Messiah when He arrived.

 

[JohnMarsten]

Couple of verses come to mind:

2Thess 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

God won't force anyone to accept his truth, so when someone has decidedly turned their heart against God, God let's them go. Scripture states this as God hardening their heart, which I believe could be synonymous to God withdrawing His Holy Spirit from said individual, or group of individuals. Thus it's not so much that it was written in stone that Israel would reject God, so much as it was that the nation, for the most part, simply accepted the teachings of men over the words of God, and thus rejected the Messiah when He arrived.

and you are sure about that?

 

[Stryder06]

Indeed I am.

 

[JohnMarsten]

Indeed I am.

What makes you sure of that?

 

[Stryder06]

What makes you sure of that?

The verses I posted. The words of Christ, that He came to save the lost sheep of Israel. I believe in the freedom of choice for everyone. Were it not so than that would mean that God intentionally is sending people to hell, because they had no choice but to reject the Messiah since He wrote it out that way.

 

[JohnMarsten]

The verses I posted. The words of Christ, that He came to save the lost sheep of Israel. I believe in the freedom of choice for everyone. Were it not so than that would mean that God intentionally is sending people to hell, because they had no choice but to reject the Messiah since He wrote it out that way.

so you say 2 Thess. is talking about the israelites, right?

 

[Stryder06]

so you say 2 Thess. is talking about the israelites, right?

I was talking about people in general, Jews included.

 

[JohnMarsten]

I was talking about people in general, Jews included.

so would you say that when Christ was on earth they still had the chance to accept Him...

 

[Stryder06]

so would you say that when Christ was on earth they still had the chance to accept Him...

I would. The only thing that keeps anyone from accepting Christ is the hardness of their own heart.

 

[JohnMarsten]

I would. The only thing that keeps anyone from accepting Christ is the hardness of their own heart.

just out of curiosity

what do you think means 'until the full number of the Gentiles has come in'?

could you bring that into context?

 

[Stryder06]

just out of curiosity

what do you think means 'until the full number of the Gentiles has come in'?

could you bring that into context?

Till those who are gentiles (as many as will come) are brought in.

 

[JohnMarsten]

Till those who are gentiles (as many as will come) are brought in.

so what happens when this is done? is it still goin on in your understanding?

 

[Stryder06]

so what happens when this is done? is it still goin on in your understanding?

Yup.

 

[JohnMarsten]

Yup.

is yup your answer to the first or the second question?

 

[Stryder06]

is yup your answer to the first or the second question?

Second.

 

[JohnMarsten]

Second.

how would you answer the first question?

 

[Stryder06]

how would you answer the first question?

What happens once all the gentiles are brought in? I'm assuming the only thing to follow is the second coming.

 

[JohnMarsten]

What happens once all the gentiles are brought in? I'm assuming the only thing to follow is the second coming.

... and in regard to the Jews?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

In the bible we find a couple of instances in which the Lord hardened the heart of the people (for example Pharao)...

Now I was thinking about the israelites and when you see

Matthew 21:42

‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

you might notice that the builders rejected the chief cornerstone and it is said it as the Lord's doing... I think we can argue about this, but still there is this impression that the whole thing was planned and that they absolutely had to reject it...

furthermore we find

Rom. 11:25b-29 -- Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob, and this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." [Isa. 59:20,21]
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and His call are irrevocable.

In this verse we see that Israels heart has been hardened until the number of Gentiles is complete...

What do you think about all this?

If you look at the quote again..

Matthew 21:42

‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

You can read that the rejection od Christ was the Lords doing or that Him becoming the chief cornerstone was the plan. When you think about it, why would the people rejoice that they rejected God?