Did St Paul exist?

[Vanellus]

I was just wondering what is the evidence for the existence of St Paul outside the New Testament e.g. inscriptions in stone?

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I was just wondering what is the evidence for the existence of St Paul outside the New Testament e.g. inscriptions in stone?

The early church writings like the Apostolic Fathers quoting him would be solid evidence since they were living just after the NT age. And likewise early church historians and Roman historians writing about him would also be included.


Chapter 5. No Less Evils Have Arisen from the Same Source in the Most Recent Times. The Martyrdom of Peter and Paul.
But not to dwell upon ancient examples, let us come to the most recent spiritual heroes. Let us take the noble examples furnished in our own generation. Through envy and jealousy the greatest and most righteous pillars [of the church] have been persecuted and put to death. Let us set before our eyes the illustrious apostles. Peter, through unrighteous envy, endured not one or two, but numerous labours; and when he had at length suffered martyrdom, departed to the place of glory due to him. Owing to envy, Paul also obtained the reward of patient endurance, after being seven times thrown into captivity, compelled to flee, and stoned. After preaching both in the east and west, he gained the illustrious reputation due to his faith, having taught righteousness to the whole world, and come to the extreme limit of the west, and suffered martyrdom under the prefects. Thus was he removed from the world, and went into the holy place, having proved himself a striking example of patience.

CHURCH FATHERS: Letter to the Corinthians (Clement)



The First Epistle of Clement (Ancient Greek: Κλήμεντος πρὸς Κορινθίους, romanized: Klēmentos pros Korinthious, lit. 'Clement to Corinthians') is a letter addressed to the Christians in the city of Corinth. Based on internal evidence the letter was composed some time before AD 70[1][2][3] The common time given for the epistle’s composition is at the end of the reign of Domitian (c. AD 96).[4][5] and AD 140, most likely around 96.

First Epistle of Clement - Wikipedia

 

[Vanellus]

Would they be quoting and relying on the NT though? If so, it still reduces to assuming the NT proves St Paul exists. I'm not saying the NT doesnt prove his existence but I was wondering if there are any artifacts, like stone inscriptions that are evidence that he existed

 

[A_JAY]

Not evidence: apparently some Medieval Church people thought that Paul and Roman Philosopher Seneca corresponded. Some of Seneca's philosophy agreed with Christian beliefs. It seems he was an enlightened pagan.

 

[Swag365]

I was just wondering what is the evidence for the existence of St Paul outside the New Testament e.g. inscriptions in stone?

Would they be quoting and relying on the NT though? If so, it still reduces to assuming the NT proves St Paul exists. I'm not saying the NT doesnt prove his existence but I was wondering if there are any artifacts, like stone inscriptions that are evidence that he existed

How does a stone inscription prove that something existed? I have some stone in front of my building. It ain't like if I inscribe "unicorns were here" that means that unicorns exist.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Would they be quoting and relying on the NT though? If so, it still reduces to assuming the NT proves St Paul exists. I'm not saying the NT doesnt prove his existence but I was wondering if there are any artifacts, like stone inscriptions that are evidence that he existed

Yes and no. By and large they would be taking the word of people who lived a generation or so before them and personally knew Paul. You got to understand that the NT at this time did not exist, it was all individual scrolls and would not be "Canonized" till around AD 380 or so. But anyway some of these people were discipled by saint John the Divine... so they would have some fresh information being able to talk to the last of the surviving apostles.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Ignatius of Antioch is a great example. He was a disciple of John and the 3rd bishop of Antioch. His writings are very reminiscent of saint PAul and on his death said. "I thank you, O Lord, that You have vouchsafed to honor me with perfect love towards You, and have made me to be bound with iron chains, like Your Apostle Paul."



Fast Facts: Ignatius of Antioch

• Born: between 35-50 CE, in Asia Minor
• Died: about 110 CE in Rome

Biography of Ignatius of Antioch: Second Century Christian Bishop

 

[ViaCrucis]

I was just wondering what is the evidence for the existence of St Paul outside the New Testament e.g. inscriptions in stone?

We have writings of people who personally knew Paul, such as St. Clement of Rome and St. Ignatius of Antioch.

But, no, there is no monument somewhere that says, "Paul of Tarsus was here".

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Tolworth John]

I was just wondering what is the evidence for the existence of St Paul outside the New Testament e.g. inscriptions in stone?

There is excellent evidence for the existence of Paul.

Atheist New Testament scholars like Bart Sherman state that there is only one eyewitness account of having seen the risen Jesus. That given by Paul.
In addition skeptical scholars accept some of Paul's letters as genuine and are prepared to debate the meaning and relevance of the verses in them.

 

[Vanellus]

Well the NT was only formally constituted centuries after the NT era but the writings that form the NT (e.g. Paul's letters) existed much earlier and that was what I meant (obviously I thought) by the "NT" in this context.

Bart Sherman?

One would have to have good reason to think that a stone inscription was deliberately falsified!

 

[J_B_]

We have writings of people who personally knew Paul, such as St. Clement of Rome and St. Ignatius of Antioch.

"But how do you know Clement existed?", J_B_ asks somewhat facetiously.

I'm not saying the NT doesnt prove his existence but I was wondering if there are any artifacts, like stone inscriptions that are evidence that he existed

What difference does stone make? There were stone monuments to the entire Pantheon of gods at that time. Stone can lie just as easily as pagans, atheists, and Christians. People who reject the historicity of the Bible tend to invoke a rather odd historiography not used for any other ancient person.

 

[klutedavid]

I was just wondering what is the evidence for the existence of St Paul outside the New Testament e.g. inscriptions in stone?

Some of the Gentile churches were started by Paul.

Mention by Ignatius of Antioch's Epistle to the Romans and Epistle to the Ephesians, Polycarp's Epistle to the Philippians, and in Clement of Rome's Epistle to the Corinthians, who also says that Paul Suffered martyrdom and that he had preached in the East and in the Far West[162][163][139][164] (wikipedia)

Half of the book of Acts is written about Paul.

Of all the people in the New Testament, Paul would be by far the most prolific identity. It would be virtually impossible to doubt the historicity of Paul.

 

[Radagast]

But, no, there is no monument somewhere that says, "Paul of Tarsus was here".

There's the church where he lies buried, outside the old city walls.

 

[Radagast]

Some of the Gentile churches were started by Paul.

In Corinth, for example, Christians have worshipped every Sunday since Paul founded the church, up until today.

They are also a monument.

 

[Radagast]

You got to understand that the NT at this time did not exist, it was all individual scrolls and would not be "Canonized" till around AD 380 or so.

Very early on, Christians switched from scrolls to bound books (codexes). The oldest NT fragment we have (from around the year 140) is from a bound book.

The Codex Sinaiticus from around 350 is a complete Bible (with two extra books in a sort of appendix).

 

[klutedavid]

In Corinth, for example, Christians have worshipped every Sunday since Paul founded the church, up until today.

They are also a monument.

Exactly.

Paul is one apostle that I don't think anyone would doubt. The evidence is overwhelming for Paul.

 

[Vanellus]

"But how do you know Clement existed?", J_B_ asks somewhat facetiously.

What difference does stone make? There were stone monuments to the entire Pantheon of gods at that time. Stone can lie just as easily as pagans, atheists, and Christians. People who reject the historicity of the Bible tend to invoke a rather odd historiography not used for any other ancient person.

There's a difference between, say. a temple to Athena and Trajan's column.

 

[J_B_]

There's a difference between, say. a temple to Athena and Trajan's column.

Sure, but not a difference in whether they provide objective evidence for someone's existence. If stone is claimed to be evidence for Trajan's existence, stone can also be claimed as evidence for Athena's existence. If stone is rejected as proof of Athena, stone can also be rejected as proof of Trajan.

It's not the stone in and of itself that makes the difference.

 

[Vanellus]

Your argument seems to be that the existence (or non existence) of Trajan's column makes no contribution to the evidence for (or against) Trajan's existence. Are you sure you mean that?

The temple to Athena provides evidence that people believed that Athena existed not that Athena actually existed. That's because Trajan is described as a human being who lived on earth but Athena was believed in as a supernatural being.

Trajan's column provides evidence that Trajan actually lived on earth.
Athena's temple provides evidence that people believed Athena existed as a supernatural deity.

 

[J_B_]

Your argument seems to be that the existence (or non existence) of Trajan's column makes no contribution to the evidence for (or against) Trajan's existence. Are you sure you mean that?

No, that's not my point.

The temple to Athena provides evidence that people believed that Athena existed not that Athena actually existed. That's because Trajan is described as a human being who lived on earth but Athena was believed in as a supernatural being.

Trajan's column provides evidence that Trajan actually lived on earth.
Athena's temple provides evidence that people believed Athena existed as a supernatural deity.

What you're doing is called special pleading.