Did Martin Luther make heaven?

[rockytopva]

Initially I thought that Martin Luther was a hero of the age. As I read on I came upon some pretty nasty quotes against the ana-Baptist, Catholics, and Jews.

I believe that the churches are seven...

Ephesus - Apostolic - Paul records all Asia as having forsaken him.
Smyrna - Martyr - Foxes has the persecutions as ten.
Pergamos - Orthodox... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholic - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestant - A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Materialistic - Rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing?

Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. - Revelation 3:4

It is my estimation that with the arrogance came another form of Catholic church... Same spiritual motivation - Different name. In which, if I had to put my stamp of approval on any denomination in this time period, it would be the Ana-Baptists.

I would have cautioned Martin Luther and John Calvin about the what they were getting into to. Reformation is good... Just don't become as evil as those you reformed from.

 

[Resha Caner]

Initially I thought that Martin Luther was a hero of the age. As I read on I came upon some pretty nasty quotes against the ana-Baptist, Catholics, and Jews.

He wasn't perfect? Shocking.

 

[Anna the Seeker]

He wasn't perfect? Shocking.

Yep. He was just a man with some agreeable ideas and who pushed a snowball to roll downhill, but it doesn't mean that he was right about everything.

For me, to dismiss or to ignore Jews is to dismiss or ignore a large part of the Old Testament, and thus a large part of the Bible itself. Even that I cannot say that I like all things mentioned there, such as some stories and traditions.

Even Jesus is from Jewish origins, even if he did travel a lot in the New Testament and change things, or views of things.

 

[Resha Caner]

Yep. He was just a man with some agreeable ideas and who pushed a snowball to roll downhill, but it doesn't mean that he was right about everything.

It was a bit more than that. The man was tenacious and brilliant. Still imperfect. But tenacious and brilliant.

For me, to dismiss or to ignore Jews is to dismiss or ignore a large part of the Old Testament, and thus a large part of the Bible itself. Even that I cannot say that I like all things mentioned there, such as some stories and traditions.

Don't listen too much to random comments about Luther on the Internet. There were people who hated him, and so slandered him. Some still do hate him. He's misunderstood on many subjects, the Jews being only one of them. He thought he had been sent to rescue the Jews - to bring them to the Christian faith. When that didn't happen, he expressed his frustration in hyperbole. I'm not saying his words were justified, but he didn't mean the literal hatred some people extract from his comments.

And, after a very hard life, toward the end he had some severe health issues that kept him in considerable pain. So, some of what he wrote toward the end became a bit incoherent. The weakness of the flesh.

And yet, when it's all said and done, still tenacious and brilliant.

 

[Albion]

Personally, I have a very high opinion of Dr. Luther and think that those who don't feel that way fall mainly into two categories. Either they are Catholics who, understandably, are not disposed towards the man who launched the Reformation; OR else, they just don't know as much about the man as they should before passing judgment.

But most of all, I think these "Did ____ make heaven?" threads are useless for one good reason. None of us knows who "made" heaven--at least aside from the obvious Biblical figures.

 

[rockytopva]

From The day I found out Martin Luther Hated Jews

So on Saturday I learned that the great Reformer, Martin Luther, was an anti-Semite.

And I mean a real, burn-down-their-houses-and-cut-off-their limbs anti-Semite. He called for violence, dismemberment, arson, expulsion, and death, and provided material that would later be used by Nazis to stir up anti-Jewish sentiment among the German people.


In a book entitled On Jews and Their Lies, Luther wrote:

“My advice, as I said earlier, is: First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire...Second, that all their books-- their prayer books, their Talmudic writings, also the entire Bible-- be taken from them, not leaving them one leaf, and that these be preserved for those who may be converted...Third, that they be forbidden on pain of death to praise God, to give thanks, to pray, and to teach publicly among us and in our country...Fourth, that they be forbidden to utter the name of God within our hearing. For we cannot with a good conscience listen to this or tolerate it…The rulers must act like a good physician who, when gangrene has set in proceeds without mercy to cut, saw, and burn flesh, veins, bone, and marrow. Such a procedure must also be followed in this instance. Burn down their synagogues, forbid all that I enumerated earlier, force them to work, and deal harshly with them. If this does not help we must drive them out like mad dogs."

 

[Resha Caner]

So on Saturday I learned that the great Reformer, Martin Luther, was an anti-Semite.

There is a difference between misdirected anger and antiSemitism. But, suppose you're right. What's your point here? Be careful that you're not joining in some unwarranted slander - that you might be doing the very thing you're accusing Luther of.

Are you implying people who admire Luther are antiSemites?

Are you saying Luther can't be forgiven? Are you saying we mere mortals can judge the eternal fate of other mortals?

Are you saying everything he wrote is wrong because one thing he wrote was wrong?

Are you saying proper theology can only be conveyed by perfect people?

I'm not sure what your message is. If you think the text you quoted is a surprise to Lutherans, you would be wrong.

 

[Albion]

Most Christians in Medieval Europe --as well as the Church itself--were virulent anti-Semites, so I don't think you should make toooo much out of this one fact.

The writing you are referring to occurred late in his life and is considered by all to be a mark of his disappointment or frustration that now that the grip of the Church and its superstitions and oppression had been countered by the appearance of reformed Christianity, the Jews didn't convert to Christianity as he'd hoped they would. This seems naïve now, but you ought to see it in the context of its times.

As for Hitler picking up on it, I don't think we can blame what Hitler did on anyone who came centuries before him, whether that be Luther, Charlemagne, or Jesus...and yes, he said admiring things of all of them.

From The day I found out Martin Luther Hated Jews

So on Saturday I learned that the great Reformer, Martin Luther, was an anti-Semite.

And I mean a real, burn-down-their-houses-and-cut-off-their limbs anti-Semite. He called for violence, dismemberment, arson, expulsion, and death, and provided material that would later be used by Nazis to stir up anti-Jewish sentiment among the German people.


In a book entitled On Jews and Their Lies, Luther wrote:

“My advice, as I said earlier, is: First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire...Second, that all their books-- their prayer books, their Talmudic writings, also the entire Bible-- be taken from them, not leaving them one leaf, and that these be preserved for those who may be converted...Third, that they be forbidden on pain of death to praise God, to give thanks, to pray, and to teach publicly among us and in our country...Fourth, that they be forbidden to utter the name of God within our hearing. For we cannot with a good conscience listen to this or tolerate it…The rulers must act like a good physician who, when gangrene has set in proceeds without mercy to cut, saw, and burn flesh, veins, bone, and marrow. Such a procedure must also be followed in this instance. Burn down their synagogues, forbid all that I enumerated earlier, force them to work, and deal harshly with them. If this does not help we must drive them out like mad dogs."

 

[Vince53]

I had to read biographies of some of the Protestant reformers, and I reached some conclusions:

1) They were very heavily trained in bad theology.
2) They were so clumsy with the Sword of the Spirit that they couldn't handle a simple doctrine like baptism.
3) They were corrupted by the pagan philosophies of St. Augustine.
4) They were nothing but men, leading a massive movement that they were not qualified to lead, and they did the best they could.

 

[Albion]

I had to read biographies of some of the Protestant reformers, and I reached some conclusions:

1) They were very heavily trained in bad theology.
2) They were so clumsy with the Sword of the Spirit that they couldn't handle a simple doctrine like baptism.
3) They were corrupted by the pagan philosophies of St. Augustine.
4) They were nothing but men, leading a massive movement that they were not qualified to lead, and they did the best they could.

The fact that Luther earned a doctor's degree in a day when that was exceptional, and was considered to be the top Bible Scholar in the German States such that he was in demand as a public speaker on religious issues; and Calvin was so intellectually gifted that he was admitted to the University of Paris (which was renowned for its theology school) at the age of 14 doesn't count for much of anything, huh? "They did the best they could."

 

[Resha Caner]

I almost didn't reply to Rocky ... not planning on a direct reply to Vince (it would have been nearly identical to what Albion said). But there is something sadly humorous about all this.

I'm wondering if it might make for an interesting thread of its own - the topic being the historical thread of positions key to one's theology.

 

[Vince53]

The fact that Luther earned a doctor's degree in a day when that was exceptional, and was considered to be the top Bible Scholar in the German States such that he was in demand as a public speaker on religious issues; and Calvin was so intellectually gifted that he was admitted to the University of Paris (which was renowned for its theology school) at the age of 14 doesn't count for much of anything, huh?

No, their intellectual abilities were not enough to correct the thoroughly bad training they had received.

 

[Albion]

The fact that Luther earned a doctor's degree in a day when that was exceptional, and was considered to be the top Bible Scholar in the German States such that he was in demand as a public speaker on religious issues; and Calvin was so intellectually gifted that he was admitted to the University of Paris (which was renowned for its theology school) at the age of 14 doesn't count for much of anything, huh?

No, their intellectual abilities were not enough to correct the thoroughly bad training they had received.

You're referring to any theological education if it happened to be Roman Catholic, I take it.

And that raises another question. You'd have to say that all theological education in Western Europe, even that which was considered to be of the highest quality, was bad, corrupted, and Pagan prior to the Reformation, right?

Maybe it would be best if you just said that you disagree with their belief in infant baptism and free will...and let it go at that.

 

[Vince53]

No, Albion, Martin Luther called for persecution of the Jews and a massacre of peasants during the Peasants' Revolt. He couldn't understand simple theology such as baptism. He was very heavily trained in very bad theology, but that wasn't his fault. He did recover from St. Augustine's pagan philosophy, though.

Martin Luther struck a match in a room full of gunpowder. That does not make him qualified to deal with the explosion that followed.

 

[rockytopva]

The Lutherans have since done the right thing and begun to apologize. In reading earlier posts, I agree that this was in spirit of the age. I also take my hat off to the Bishop Mark S Hanson, that was an incredibly decent thing to do!

Metro Lutheran | Lutheran church builds bridges, works toward healing with Mennonite neighbors

 

[Albion]

No, Albion, Martin Luther called for persecution of the Jews and a massacre of peasants during the Peasants' Revolt.

So, he was anti-peasant, too?

Really, we all know that he opposed pillagers, looters, violent protestors and lawbreakers--which is a perfectly acceptable position for any Christian to take.

He couldn't understand simple theology such as baptism.

Since his theology on baptism is nearly identical to that of all the older churches, and they admit it, you are just upset that he wasn't an Anabaptist.

He did recover from St. Augustine's pagan philosophy, though.

And you expect us to believe that St. Augustine was a pagan.

 

[ViaCrucis]

And you expect us to believe that St. Augustine was a pagan.

Obviously. If Augustine had been a Real Christian(TM) he'd have read from the KJV and attended an independent Baptist Church like all true Christians have always done.

In all seriousness however, drawing attention to Luther's many faults only demonstrates that he--like everyone else on this planet--was a sinner who left to his own devices would be miserably condemned under the wrath of God's judgment. Something Luther himself understood well enough, regarding himself a miserable beggar before the awesome and righteous God whose only hope was the free grace of a benevolent God who has sought us out mercifully in and through Jesus Christ, His death and resurrection.

On the other hand if one wants to believe that only the holy, and sublimely upright can "make heaven", well then we can most assuredly say that not only did Luther not "make heaven" but that nobody has. There's no such thing as holy and upright people, we are all miserable beggars, wretches and sinners. We can depend on nothing else except the unfathomable benevolence of the God who has condescended to meet us in our wretchedness in and through the person of Jesus Christ who has become, for us, righteousness before God for our sake.

Nobody is going to quibble or disagree that Luther's faults and sins were many. Not least of which would have been Luther himself.

But if we trust Christ as our Savior, then we have forgiveness of sins and hope in God.

If we don't have that, then we have nothing.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Albion]

In all seriousness however, drawing attention to Luther's many faults only demonstrates that he--like everyone else on this planet--was a sinner who left to his own devices would be miserably condemned under the wrath of God's judgment. Something Luther himself understood well enough, regarding himself a miserable beggar before the awesome and righteous God whose only hope was the free grace of a benevolent God who has sought us out mercifully in and through Jesus Christ, His death and resurrection.

On the other hand if one wants to believe that only the holy, and sublimely upright can "make heaven", well then we can most assuredly say that not only did Luther not "make heaven" but that nobody has. There's no such thing as holy and upright people, we are all miserable beggars, wretches and sinners. We can depend on nothing else except the unfathomable benevolence of the God who has condescended to meet us in our wretchedness in and through the person of Jesus Christ who has become, for us, righteousness before God for our sake.

Nobody is going to quibble or disagree that Luther's faults and sins were many. Not least of which would have been Luther himself.

But if we trust Christ as our Savior, then we have forgiveness of sins and hope in God.

If we don't have that, then we have nothing.

-CryptoLutheran

Beautifully said, VC. The question we were asked to answer was whether or not Luther was saved, not whether or not he was the perfect human.

Of course, that's why Luther is acclaimed by those in the know--because he was a sinner (just as you said), because he knew it (just as you said), and because he repented and trusted Our Lord completely (just as you said).

Because all of us are much more like Luther than Mother Teresa, he occupies a special place in Christian history. And that's quite separate from whether we agree with his doctrinal conclusions or not.

 

[Vince53]

"So, he was anti-peasant, too?"

No, but he called for a major massacre of peasants during the Peasants' Revolt.

"...
you are just upset that he wasn't an Anabaptist."

Nope. Since he was a Protestant, I don't have to apologize for him.

"
And you expect us to believe that St. Augustine was a pagan."

After his conversion to Catholicism, St. Augustine became the greatest of the Manichean philosophers. He successfully blended a variety of pagan doctrines and customs into Catholicism.

"
If Augustine had been a Real Christian(TM) he'd have read from the KJV and attended an independent Baptist Church like all true Christians have always done."

Neither statement is true.