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Originally posted by Jedi
It does have application to us, but it was not addressed to the church in general, but to the church at Philippi. This is why certain names are mentioned and thanksgiving offered, since it is much more personal than general (especially Philippi, which seems to be Paul's favorite church). From learning what Paul said to the churches in his time, we know what's expected of us as a church today.
Just like the first verse of Philippians, where Paul clearly addresses the church of Phillippi: To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi; Christ also addresses the 12 disciples in the first verse of Matthew 24:"His disciples came to.. Him".
Parousia70 already quoted:
As Jesus came out of the temple and was going away, his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. Then he asked them, You see all these, do you not? Truly I tell you, not one stone will be left here upon another; all will be thrown down.
When he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately,saying, Tell us, when will this be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age? Jesus answered them,..
This is so obviously clear Christ was speaking directly to His disciples- I honestly do not see how anyone can argue otherwise.
Originally posted by Jedi
Thats not necessarily true. Merely because the Bible doesnt use a word in particular way doesnt mean it cant be used in that given way.
There arent any Jewish people? Gosh, I wonder who the people in Israel are. For someone to be Jewish, they have to be verified? How do you verify someones lineage except for taking them up on their word? Itd be too much of a pain in the butt to go track down all their dead relatives and try to trace them back to king David or someone of historical significance that proves theyre Jewish.
I mentioned that, if indeed the reference is to the destruction of Jerusalem, which occurred about 40 years after Jesus spoke these words, "generation" is used in the sense of a normal life span. All these things were fulfilled in a preliminary sense in the AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem.
Ah, so this is what the rub is. You think the second coming has already happened.
The problem with this, though, is that Christ described it as something that would be unmistakable and that everyone would see it just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be (Matthew 24:27). Id find it extremely odd that all the historians would omit such an event as this, considering how much glorious interaction would be going on (cf. Luke 9:26).
Are you in the practice of basing your belief on what might be true?
Instead of settling for,"Well, it could mean that, so I might as well believe it", why not uncover what it "actually means"?
Jedi, I never said there aren't any Jewish people, I said there is no verifiable Jewish race. Being a "Jew" today is a religious choice. Nothing more, nothing less.
As for the importance of Geneology in OT Judiasm, it is paramount. I recommend you study it.
WHAT!!??! What scripture teaches that the destruction of Jerusalem was to be a "preliminary fulfillment" of anything?
Could you explain this concept of "preliminary fulfillment"? Sounds lika[sic] an oxymoron to me.
Isn't a prophesy either fulfilled or unfulfilled?
Jedi, Remember when you conceeded[sic] me the point about your "Sun, moon and stars falling" argument?
Same applies here. You'll need to conceed[sic] this too
This Language is used throughout the OT to describe judgements[sic] against nations using human armies.
Time and again, God is described as being "Seen" by their "Eyes", "Riding a cloud" With "Lightning flashing"......
Interprating[sic] this Language, when used by Jesus, in a way that is in direct conflict with the way the prophets used the very same language, is absolutely unfounded.
Originally posted by Jedi
Thats the thing about Jews today, it seems. Someone can be Jewish in cultural background, but not in faith, while another man can be Jewish in faith, but not in cultural background.
Funny. I already have.
Because this isnt a prophecy concerning one event, but a sequence of events spread out across a timeline. The first thing that were said to happen did (If indeed, the destruction of the temple & the fall of Jerusalem is what is being spoken of here), and thus the preliminary fulfillment. The rest (second coming of Christ in all his glory where everyone sees him just as lightning in the east flashes even in the west) has yet to come to pass.
This case is very different, since Christ is using this description to tell people that everyone will see him as hes describing. Thats how well be able to tell the difference between the false Christs he spoke of, and when he actually comes.
Originally posted by Jedi
But Jesus, unlike Paul, did not specifically address the apostles in return when making his statement,
Originally posted by Jedi
his statement holds true for all of his followers (both then and now as you move along the timeline of these events as they happen).
Originally posted by Jedi
Yep. And the point here is...? It'd seem he's talking about the destruction of the temple & the fall of Jerusalem (70 AD), which did, in fact, come to pass.
Originally posted by Jedi
here comes a difference between Paul and Jesus. Jesus, being more than mere man, I'm sure he knew that what he said would be recorded for all of his followers to hear (not just his apostles), and so it's not so absurd an idea that Jesus says "you" as a reference to them as believers (which would include the apostles, and perhaps even moreso since they were the leaders of the early believers).
Originally posted by Jedi
or else that the worldwide events described in Matthew 24:27-31 already occured
You are making my very point!
All anyone has to do today to be a Jew is to choose to be one. That's it.
Thats[sic] not true of any "race".
Really? The way you simply dismissed geneological[sic] verification as unimportant, spoke the opposite to me.
How much of Matt 24's "series" of events have been fulfilled and which haven't? Where exactly do you draw the line?
Jesus' primaty[sic] audience, being well versed in this language, and recognizing Jesus as a true prophet of God, would have understood this language no other way, than that of the way prophets of God had spoke it so often before.
Please, tell me how its unclear Christ specifically addresses the apostles....I mean, you are actually reading this passage?..and you are applying basic grammatical rules?
A point we actually agree on!
Or are you saying that part of the prophecy applied to the 1st century generation (temple destruction)....and the rest of the prophecy will apply to some future (our future) generation?
I'm not going to argue the deity of Christ in this thread, but rather I'll mention that Christ didn't start His ministry until he received the Holy Spirit. You see, Paul also received this same Holy Spirit.
So if Christ knew His words would be read by future generations and altered His audience to include them/us.....Paul should have done the same. There is no difference.
What happens in 100 years when the First Baptist Church of Phillipi[sic]
is founded. Will the people of this church say, "Oh! Look! The words of Paul addressed to the church of Phillipi[sic]! Wow, he is speaking directly to us!
Exactly
Originally posted by Jedi
Yes, there is. Jesus is God (Hebrews 1:8, Isaiah 9:6, Colossians 2:9) and displayed knowledge of people he shouldnt have known as a mere man (i.e. John 4:18). These are not characteristics found in Paul. To put Jesus on the same level as Paul as far as understanding & perspective goes, I would think that blasphemous.
Originally posted by Jedi
No, thats not what Im saying. If you would read my posts a little more carefully, you would know this. The letter is not addressed to the church in general, but to the church in Philippi. Therefore, when specific names are mentioned and thanksgiving given, we know this pertains specifically to the church at Philippi.
Wait,wait[sic]. I sense the beginning of a twisting of my words.
I'm simply stating that the Holy Spirit was "unleashed" at Pentecost upon the 1st century church to "guide them into all truth". Thus, people like Paul, Peter, and other apostles had the ability to cast out demons, heal, and prophesy, much like Christ did.
Thus, Paul's understanding of the timing of the "end times" is consistent with Christ's. Hence, if Christ was speaking to a universal audience, Paul should have as well.
So when Simon Peter, James, John, Judas Iscariot, Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James, Thaddaeus, and Simon came to Him outside the temple to discuss the "end times", we are to assume Christ wasn't speaking to them directly?
So, how could Christ be speaking to a universal Christian audience, when 99% of Christians between 33AD and 1700AD didn't have a copy of Matthew to read His words to them?
You see, Christ's words in Matthew 24 were stated directly to the 12 disciples. The 12 disciples then spread His message and his words on to other Christians. This is how His words spread.
This is absolutely false. Every proof text you have posted has been throughly rebutted. Ignoring that fact will not change it.Originally posted by parousia70
This Language is used throughout the OT to describe judgements against nations using human armies.
Time and again, God is described as being "Seen" by their "Eyes", "Riding a cloud" With "Lightning flashing"......
Interprating this Language, when used by Jesus, in a way that is in direct conflict with the way the prophets used the very same language, is absolutely unfounded.
Originally posted by Jedi
Thats not what Im saying, though. The thing is that what he said wasnt directed only to them, but to all of Christs followers. It would seem, though, that the apostles did see all of the things leading up to the second coming of Christ. Surely the apostles had to deal with false Christs (Matthew 24:4, 23-28), the abomination that causes desolation (verse 15 presuming this is the destruction of the temple & fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD), wars and rumors of wars (verse 6 - what do you think caused the fall of Jerusalem?), and the persecution of his followers (verse 9) which still continues today (persecution hasnt stopped). So in verse 33, when Christ says, Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door, it would seem hes talking about the events leading up to the end (the second coming), which the disciples did see all of those listed. Just a bit of lightning to strike my brain.
Originally posted by Jedi
On a side note, its been a true pleasure discussing these matters with you (Ive definitely learned a thing or two), but with this time of year, I have finals to tend to. Then, right after finals, Im going home for Christmas break, and Im sure Ill be busy with my family (who I havent seen for half a year). But hey, you (and paraousia70) take care, and Im sure well end up in some discussion again sooner or later.
Originally posted by OldShepherd
There is no question that Jesus prophesied the destruction of the temple, Jerusalem, and Israel in Matt 24, there are also parallel passages in Mark 13 and Luke 19. This destruction, in 70 AD, is well documented by Josephus and other Jewish scholars. Roman armies actually, literally, attacked Jerusalem and slaughtered thousands. The residents of Jerusalem actually, literally, ran for their lives into the mountains. The stones of the temple were actually, literally, torn down leaving only part of one wall standing.
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