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<blockquote data-quote="AlexBP" data-source="post: 57156537" data-attributes="member: 261211"><p>Uh huh. This branch of the debate began with the contention about whether Paul believed that Jesus, the Messiah, lived on earth or not. You are trying to argue that Paul believed the Messiah did not live on earth. That's the conclusion that you're trying to prove. Now you're invoking the conclusion that you're trying to prove as part of the argument to support that conclusion--a classic case of circular reasoning. Why would you do something so desperate? Could this be your way of admitting that you can't name any first-century Jewish person or group who viewed the Messiah as anything other than an earthly human beings.</p><p> </p><p>Second, when you say "the epistles seem to indicate a Christ that did not live on earth", you are wrong. They clearly, unambiguously say that Christ lived on earth many times. A few examples:</p><p> </p><p>1. Paul claimed to be spread the "gospel". [Romans 1:1] As already mentioned, this term refered to a report about events, not merely an interpretation of ancient scriptures, and Paul's introduction to Romans is likely modeled on the birth announcements for a child of the Emperor.</p><p> </p><p>2. Paul says that Jesus was "born of a descendant of David according to the flesh". [Romans 1:3]</p><p> </p><p>3. Paul describes Jesus Christ as a man repeatedly. You say that you can only find two instances. I can find many more.</p><p> </p><p><span style="color: darkred">"But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did Gods grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one mans sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive Gods abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ! </span></p><p><span style="color: darkred">Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous."</span> [Romans 5:15-9]</p><p> </p><p>So there are three references to Jesus Christ as a man in that passage alone.</p><p> </p><p>4. Further, the entire point of chapter 5 of Romans is to juxtapose how "sin entered the world through one man" with "God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of one man, Jesus Christ". Since Paul certainly thought that Adam was a man, the comparison only makes sense if Paul thought that Jesus was a man.</p><p> </p><p>5. Paul says that Jesus was buried. [Romans 6:4 and many other passages.]</p><p> </p><p>6. Paul says that God "sent Jesus Christ in the likeness of sinful flesh". [Romans 8:3]</p><p> </p><p>7. Paul says that Jesus Christ was "an offering for sin" by which "he condemned sin in the flesh". [Romans 8:3-4] As understood by the Jews, "offerings" were only physical things, animals in most cases.</p><p> </p><p>8. Paul says that Jesus Christ was an Israelite. [Romans 9:4-5]</p><p> </p><p>9. Paul says that "Christ has become a servant of the circumcision" (i.e. was circumcised.) [Romans 15:8]</p><p> </p><p>10. Paul quotes Jesus Christ numerous times, as I've already discussed.</p><p> </p><p>So there are ten indications that Paul believed Jesus Christ did live on earth. We've gotten this far without even exhausting the book of Romans. References to Jesus' earthly life are equally dense in Paul's other letters. In addition, the idea the epistles indicate a Christ who did not live on earth has been addressed at length by scholars. See any of these links:</p><p> </p><p><a href="http://christianthinktank.com/musly1.html#nolife" target="_blank">musly1</a></p><p><a href="http://www.bede.org.uk/price7.htm" target="_blank">Doherty on 'According to the Flesh'</a></p><p><a href="http://www.doxa.ws/Myth/myth_template.html" target="_blank">Earl Doherty's "Evolution of Jesus refuted; Jesus existed proved, Q community disproved--page 1</a></p><p><a href="http://www.tektonics.org/doherty/doherty20lb.html" target="_blank">http://www.tektonics.org/doherty/doherty20lb.html</a></p><p> </p><p>So there's a very small portion of the total amount of evidence that Paul believed Jesus Christ to be a human being who lived on earth. What do you have to say in response to justify your claim that "the epistles seem to indicate a Christ who did not live on earth"? I rather suspect that your response, if it comes at all, will involve many claims about passages being metaphorical and a lot of demands that we agree to disagree. But who knows? Maybe you'll surprise us.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AlexBP, post: 57156537, member: 261211"] Uh huh. This branch of the debate began with the contention about whether Paul believed that Jesus, the Messiah, lived on earth or not. You are trying to argue that Paul believed the Messiah did not live on earth. That's the conclusion that you're trying to prove. Now you're invoking the conclusion that you're trying to prove as part of the argument to support that conclusion--a classic case of circular reasoning. Why would you do something so desperate? Could this be your way of admitting that you can't name any first-century Jewish person or group who viewed the Messiah as anything other than an earthly human beings. Second, when you say "the epistles seem to indicate a Christ that did not live on earth", you are wrong. They clearly, unambiguously say that Christ lived on earth many times. A few examples: 1. Paul claimed to be spread the "gospel". [Romans 1:1] As already mentioned, this term refered to a report about events, not merely an interpretation of ancient scriptures, and Paul's introduction to Romans is likely modeled on the birth announcements for a child of the Emperor. 2. Paul says that Jesus was "born of a descendant of David according to the flesh". [Romans 1:3] 3. Paul describes Jesus Christ as a man repeatedly. You say that you can only find two instances. I can find many more. [COLOR=darkred]"But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did Gods grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one mans sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive Gods abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ! [/COLOR] [COLOR=darkred]Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous."[/COLOR] [Romans 5:15-9] So there are three references to Jesus Christ as a man in that passage alone. 4. Further, the entire point of chapter 5 of Romans is to juxtapose how "sin entered the world through one man" with "God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of one man, Jesus Christ". Since Paul certainly thought that Adam was a man, the comparison only makes sense if Paul thought that Jesus was a man. 5. Paul says that Jesus was buried. [Romans 6:4 and many other passages.] 6. Paul says that God "sent Jesus Christ in the likeness of sinful flesh". [Romans 8:3] 7. Paul says that Jesus Christ was "an offering for sin" by which "he condemned sin in the flesh". [Romans 8:3-4] As understood by the Jews, "offerings" were only physical things, animals in most cases. 8. Paul says that Jesus Christ was an Israelite. [Romans 9:4-5] 9. Paul says that "Christ has become a servant of the circumcision" (i.e. was circumcised.) [Romans 15:8] 10. Paul quotes Jesus Christ numerous times, as I've already discussed. So there are ten indications that Paul believed Jesus Christ did live on earth. We've gotten this far without even exhausting the book of Romans. References to Jesus' earthly life are equally dense in Paul's other letters. In addition, the idea the epistles indicate a Christ who did not live on earth has been addressed at length by scholars. See any of these links: [URL="http://christianthinktank.com/musly1.html#nolife"]musly1[/URL] [URL="http://www.bede.org.uk/price7.htm"]Doherty on 'According to the Flesh'[/URL] [URL="http://www.doxa.ws/Myth/myth_template.html"]Earl Doherty's "Evolution of Jesus refuted; Jesus existed proved, Q community disproved--page 1[/URL] [URL]http://www.tektonics.org/doherty/doherty20lb.html[/URL] So there's a very small portion of the total amount of evidence that Paul believed Jesus Christ to be a human being who lived on earth. What do you have to say in response to justify your claim that "the epistles seem to indicate a Christ who did not live on earth"? I rather suspect that your response, if it comes at all, will involve many claims about passages being metaphorical and a lot of demands that we agree to disagree. But who knows? Maybe you'll surprise us. [/QUOTE]
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