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Did Jesus Exist?
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<blockquote data-quote="doubtingmerle" data-source="post: 57141283" data-attributes="member: 6687"><p>Still going strong, huh?</p><p> </p><p>Several times I asked you if we couldn't just agree to disagree. Apparently not.</p><p> </p><p>Onward.</p><p></p><p>The common source may well have been the Jerusalem apostles, as I mentioned in post #243. We don't know a lot about the Jerusalem apostles, but we do know that Peter, James and John show up in both the writings of Paul and Mark. Possibly they instituted a eucharist ritual, and possibly this ritual was based on Greek savior myth cults. This did not need to begin with a historical Jesus. It could have been a common belief in a cosmic Christ.</p><p></p><p>And yet you have provided this quote from Justin Martyr, which shows there is indeed a similarity:</p><p> </p><p style="margin-left: 20px">For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body; "and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood; "and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated<strong> in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done</strong>. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn. (emphasis added)</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p><p>So Justin says the cult of Mithras was "commanding the same thing" concerning eating of the body and blood. Justin credits devils with creating the Mithras ritual just like the Christian ritual. That sounds like they were very similar to me.</p><p></p><p>Which came first? Both may have come from a common culture, or both may have come from a particular common source, or one religion or the other may have copied the other.</p><p> </p><p>Any of those explanations is more probable to me than that God incarnate called bread his body and then asked people to eat it, and that others were following a perversion taught by the devil himself.</p><p> </p><p>We do know that the Mithras cult appears roughly in the time frame of the spread of Christianity in the first 2 centuries. Justin refers to it in the middle of the second century, and we have early Mithras artefacts, although we cannot date exactly when the Mithras meal began.</p><p></p><p>So it is not enough for you to say that we differ on an issue of history? </p><p> </p><p>Instead you need to insist that those who differ with you are outright lying?</p><p> </p><p>Can you understand how such language is not conducive to civil debates? Why not give people the benefit of the doubt? Even if they disagree with you, that does not mean they are deliberately lying.</p><p></p><p>I have seen these long debates with Turkel for years. That is why I was surprised to see you bring him up. The link I sent was just a confirmation of what I had already observed.</p><p> </p><p>So now I will need to read Turkel's endless distortions and reply to all of his writings also?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="doubtingmerle, post: 57141283, member: 6687"] Still going strong, huh? Several times I asked you if we couldn't just agree to disagree. Apparently not. Onward. The common source may well have been the Jerusalem apostles, as I mentioned in post #243. We don't know a lot about the Jerusalem apostles, but we do know that Peter, James and John show up in both the writings of Paul and Mark. Possibly they instituted a eucharist ritual, and possibly this ritual was based on Greek savior myth cults. This did not need to begin with a historical Jesus. It could have been a common belief in a cosmic Christ. And yet you have provided this quote from Justin Martyr, which shows there is indeed a similarity: [INDENT]For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body; "and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood; "and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated[B] in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done[/B]. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn. (emphasis added) [/INDENT]So Justin says the cult of Mithras was "commanding the same thing" concerning eating of the body and blood. Justin credits devils with creating the Mithras ritual just like the Christian ritual. That sounds like they were very similar to me. Which came first? Both may have come from a common culture, or both may have come from a particular common source, or one religion or the other may have copied the other. Any of those explanations is more probable to me than that God incarnate called bread his body and then asked people to eat it, and that others were following a perversion taught by the devil himself. We do know that the Mithras cult appears roughly in the time frame of the spread of Christianity in the first 2 centuries. Justin refers to it in the middle of the second century, and we have early Mithras artefacts, although we cannot date exactly when the Mithras meal began. So it is not enough for you to say that we differ on an issue of history? Instead you need to insist that those who differ with you are outright lying? Can you understand how such language is not conducive to civil debates? Why not give people the benefit of the doubt? Even if they disagree with you, that does not mean they are deliberately lying. I have seen these long debates with Turkel for years. That is why I was surprised to see you bring him up. The link I sent was just a confirmation of what I had already observed. So now I will need to read Turkel's endless distortions and reply to all of his writings also? [/QUOTE]
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