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Exploring Christianity
Did Jesus Exist?
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<blockquote data-quote="ElijahW" data-source="post: 57118360" data-attributes="member: 275668"><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"> No its not an assumption, its a necessity because you wont speak for yourself. If you disagree with the understanding or theory of Doherty, then I would think you should have clarified those points by now.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px">Read some Plato. Try to get a basic understanding of the thinking back then so this stuff makes some sense to you. Youre not going to believe a random person online when it comes to this, (and you shouldnt) you need to get reading on some platonic dualism and about form/particulars. </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"> Basic rundown: For everything that is matter there is a corresponding form that is eternal. Every door or every apple, is a particular or copy of an eternal spirit/form/ideal. The nation of Israel had a physical side and an ideal side. The temple as well had a physical and an ideal aspect. This is what is meant copies of the true things. The material objects were understood as copies of eternal forms. </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"> Ritual and sacrifice to the Greek philosopher was the sign of superstition. It was suggesting that the gods could be swayed and werent constant. The Hellenized Jews like Philo and Origen argued that the Jews werent understanding their rituals and sacrifices as trying to sway god but as recognizing the forms behind the ritual and sacrifice. The particular items in the sacrifice or ritual represented eternal forms and together the eternal forms created a spiritual/eternal church or kingdom. </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"> One of the main things that was missing though was a particular instance to the spiritual king or priest. This is where Jesus comes in with his instance of the spiritual authority. With his life and sacrifice he aligns himself with the ideal king/priest. </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"> The blood sacrifice as you understand it, as being a way of appeasing an anthropomorphic entity, is what they are arguing against.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span> <span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"> Stop being lazy and address the issues you have with understanding how Christianity started with a historical sacrifice.</span></span><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span> <span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px">Im not sure what your difficulty is. They were copying each other for why there are similarities in the texts. I dont go with Mark being first, I like Luke. Do you think John was unaware of the synoptics when it was written or came first?</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px">I think they refer to a new day, where the dead are raised, which I believe. There is also an ideal heaven, which is the opposite of the material realm, which I also believe in. The magical realm understanding that a lot of people have going on. I dont believe in.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px">I think it is metaphorical because I think its a vision trying to present the concepts symbolically that the writer feels will be in play at the end times.</span></span><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span> <span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px">Not as a metaphor but as an ideal. </span></span><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span> <span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px">Their faith and compassion was passed onto those whose lives they touched in a positive way and continues to live on after the founders of that faith has passed on.</span></span><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span> <span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px">No I dont believe in a literal resurrection of Jesus, in the past. He appeared to them but like he appeared to Paul.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px">Im not asking what Paul taught. Im asking where you are getting this understanding that you are using to interpret Paul by. Do you understand the difference? If no one else that you know of thought the way you are suggesting in the NT then just say so, so we can move on.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px">So Peter and the community that followed after him were also magical heaven believers and Jesus was again just the password to get in. How was he going to reveal himself? As a person or by worldwide vision?</span></span><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span> <span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px">Ok, so its four gospels that are creating a fiction but believe in a real world change, attached to letters from different groups preaching that you can get into magical heaven with the secret password, Jesus. How many groups of people did the conspirators use material from that didnt believe in the kingdom of God being established here? Pauls group in Greece and Turkey. Peters group in Jerusalem? The group that the writer of Hebrews came from in Alexandria? How many other groups did the conspirators use to build their ideology from that didnt believe in a historical Jesus but writing from were still used to support one? </span></span><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span> <span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px">And they did this because thats all the writing that were available because they didnt have any texts of their own that supported a historical Jesus. Then they added it to four fictional accounts of Jesus that they think is historical because they are unaware of the thinking of all those groups of people who think like you suggest that wrote the NT letters. And are also unaware that the writers were writing fiction in the gospels. Am I getting closer to what you think happened?</span></span><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span> <span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px">Yes, after I asked you to clarify. Your response is to my treatment of your theory before you answered my question to clarify about the kingdom. In your initial explanation of Christianity, that you love to keep referencing, do you mention or address the two different kinds of kingdom of god we are dealing with in the formation of Christianity?</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px">Its not metaphorical, its ideal. Your understanding of heaven that you have picked up from watching television is what I consider magical thinking, not the existence of heaven itself.</span></span><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span> <span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px">God is everywhere.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px">The resurrection of the dead. And not your understanding of the resurrection, where there is no actual resurrection, you just go to magic land to live with Wisdom and Reason who exist there anthropomorphically. Then and now, that comes from people taking art literally and education lightly. </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px">What do you see that it indicates, if not a messiah claimant? Who does he think you need to be with or youre against? Who is JtB asking about if Jesus is the one who they are waiting for, if not the messiah?</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px">Any possibility you consider the story about trying to establish that kingdom? I know trying to understand Paul that way would undercut your theory but with the gospels you should consider what the point of trying to establish Jesus as king would be to people trying to establish that kingdom on earth.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px">We are assuming for sake of your argument that the location was in heaven, correct? That there is a magical place where spiritual entities exist temporally and one was killed that opened up a door so people could get in if they believed something about him. Something like that right?</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px">8:20 </span></span><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px">For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, <strong>in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption</strong> and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"> It sounds like he had hopes for the creation to find a solution to its corruption. Why would the world be anxious for the resurrection of Christians if all it means is that Christians are leaving and going to magic heaven?</span></span><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px">You are mixing up resurrection of the dead and an afterlife. One concept the Jews picked up from the Persians and Zoroastrianism. The other concept comes from Greeks taking their poetry literally, which you are suggesting was also picked up by the Jews. </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px">Just to give people hope that hes going to come back? Even though you think Mark is for establishing a kingdom of god on earth, his gospel doesnt have any intended effect to help with that?</span></span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ElijahW, post: 57118360, member: 275668"] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=2] No its not an assumption, its a necessity because you wont speak for yourself. If you disagree with the understanding or theory of Doherty, then I would think you should have clarified those points by now. Read some Plato. Try to get a basic understanding of the thinking back then so this stuff makes some sense to you. Youre not going to believe a random person online when it comes to this, (and you shouldnt) you need to get reading on some platonic dualism and about form/particulars. Basic rundown: For everything that is matter there is a corresponding form that is eternal. Every door or every apple, is a particular or copy of an eternal spirit/form/ideal. The nation of Israel had a physical side and an ideal side. The temple as well had a physical and an ideal aspect. This is what is meant copies of the true things. The material objects were understood as copies of eternal forms. Ritual and sacrifice to the Greek philosopher was the sign of superstition. It was suggesting that the gods could be swayed and werent constant. The Hellenized Jews like Philo and Origen argued that the Jews werent understanding their rituals and sacrifices as trying to sway god but as recognizing the forms behind the ritual and sacrifice. The particular items in the sacrifice or ritual represented eternal forms and together the eternal forms created a spiritual/eternal church or kingdom. One of the main things that was missing though was a particular instance to the spiritual king or priest. This is where Jesus comes in with his instance of the spiritual authority. With his life and sacrifice he aligns himself with the ideal king/priest. The blood sacrifice as you understand it, as being a way of appeasing an anthropomorphic entity, is what they are arguing against. [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=2] Stop being lazy and address the issues you have with understanding how Christianity started with a historical sacrifice.[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2] [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=2] Im not sure what your difficulty is. They were copying each other for why there are similarities in the texts. I dont go with Mark being first, I like Luke. Do you think John was unaware of the synoptics when it was written or came first? I think they refer to a new day, where the dead are raised, which I believe. There is also an ideal heaven, which is the opposite of the material realm, which I also believe in. The magical realm understanding that a lot of people have going on. I dont believe in. I think it is metaphorical because I think its a vision trying to present the concepts symbolically that the writer feels will be in play at the end times.[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2] [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=2] Not as a metaphor but as an ideal. [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2] [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]Their faith and compassion was passed onto those whose lives they touched in a positive way and continues to live on after the founders of that faith has passed on.[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2] [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]No I dont believe in a literal resurrection of Jesus, in the past. He appeared to them but like he appeared to Paul. Im not asking what Paul taught. Im asking where you are getting this understanding that you are using to interpret Paul by. Do you understand the difference? If no one else that you know of thought the way you are suggesting in the NT then just say so, so we can move on. [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]So Peter and the community that followed after him were also magical heaven believers and Jesus was again just the password to get in. How was he going to reveal himself? As a person or by worldwide vision?[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2] [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]Ok, so its four gospels that are creating a fiction but believe in a real world change, attached to letters from different groups preaching that you can get into magical heaven with the secret password, Jesus. How many groups of people did the conspirators use material from that didnt believe in the kingdom of God being established here? Pauls group in Greece and Turkey. Peters group in Jerusalem? The group that the writer of Hebrews came from in Alexandria? How many other groups did the conspirators use to build their ideology from that didnt believe in a historical Jesus but writing from were still used to support one? [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2] [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]And they did this because thats all the writing that were available because they didnt have any texts of their own that supported a historical Jesus. Then they added it to four fictional accounts of Jesus that they think is historical because they are unaware of the thinking of all those groups of people who think like you suggest that wrote the NT letters. And are also unaware that the writers were writing fiction in the gospels. Am I getting closer to what you think happened?[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2] [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=2] Yes, after I asked you to clarify. Your response is to my treatment of your theory before you answered my question to clarify about the kingdom. In your initial explanation of Christianity, that you love to keep referencing, do you mention or address the two different kinds of kingdom of god we are dealing with in the formation of Christianity? Its not metaphorical, its ideal. Your understanding of heaven that you have picked up from watching television is what I consider magical thinking, not the existence of heaven itself.[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2] [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]God is everywhere. The resurrection of the dead. And not your understanding of the resurrection, where there is no actual resurrection, you just go to magic land to live with Wisdom and Reason who exist there anthropomorphically. Then and now, that comes from people taking art literally and education lightly. What do you see that it indicates, if not a messiah claimant? Who does he think you need to be with or youre against? Who is JtB asking about if Jesus is the one who they are waiting for, if not the messiah? Any possibility you consider the story about trying to establish that kingdom? I know trying to understand Paul that way would undercut your theory but with the gospels you should consider what the point of trying to establish Jesus as king would be to people trying to establish that kingdom on earth. We are assuming for sake of your argument that the location was in heaven, correct? That there is a magical place where spiritual entities exist temporally and one was killed that opened up a door so people could get in if they believed something about him. Something like that right? [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]8:20 [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, [B]in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption[/B] and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. It sounds like he had hopes for the creation to find a solution to its corruption. Why would the world be anxious for the resurrection of Christians if all it means is that Christians are leaving and going to magic heaven?[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2] You are mixing up resurrection of the dead and an afterlife. One concept the Jews picked up from the Persians and Zoroastrianism. The other concept comes from Greeks taking their poetry literally, which you are suggesting was also picked up by the Jews. Just to give people hope that hes going to come back? Even though you think Mark is for establishing a kingdom of god on earth, his gospel doesnt have any intended effect to help with that?[/SIZE][/FONT] [/QUOTE]
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