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Did Jesus Exist?
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<blockquote data-quote="AlexBP" data-source="post: 57107442" data-attributes="member: 261211"><p><span style="font-size: 12px">Okay <strong>merle</strong>, I'll answer that question in a minute. But first of all, let me point back to a question that I asked you. In post #262 I asked this: "<span style="color: black"><span style="font-size: 12px">Jews expected the messiah to be a flesh-and-blood human being.</span> </span><span style="color: black"><span style="font-size: 12px">Can you show me a single piece of evidence that <em>any </em>Jewish group believed otherwise?" Why did you not answer my question? Why are you instead trying to put the burden of proof upon me? My question was a straightforward yes-no question and I don't see why you couldn't give it a straightforward yes-no answer. I rather suspect that the reason why you refused to answer is that your answer would have to be 'no'. Of course, if your answer is 'yes' then you're welcome to provide the evidence for it.</span></span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 12px">So now back to the question that you asked me. How do I know that the Jews thought of the Messiah as only a flesh-and-blood person? Luckily for me, I've already answered this in #262 so I can just quote what I've already said.</span></p><p></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px">Now if, on top of that, I wanted more evidence of what Jewish beliefs about the Messiah were during the first century I have plenty of other sources. I could look to Josephus and see what he wrote about messianic beliefs and messianic pretenders. I could look to pagan historians such as Tacitus who discussed it somewhat. I could look to Philo of Alexandria and note that even though he broke ground in putting metaphorical and spiritual interpretations on many Old Testament passages, he nonetheless believed in the messiah as a descendant of David. I could even point out that Maimonides, writing in the Middle Ages, listed belief in an earthly messiah as one of the key tenets that all Jews had to follow. I could point to the Talmud, which says a great deal about the messiah and all of it simply assuming a descendant of David. So there's no shortage of evidence that first-century Jews believed the messiah could only be a physical human descended from David. But again, the ball's in your court. I've asked you to list a single example of a first-century Jewish movement that didn't believe the messiah to be a human descendant of David. Now it's up to you to do so.</span></p><p> </p><p></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px">Can I see such a list or do I just have to take your word on its existence?</span></p><p> </p><p></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px">He does say that the Jesus, who he learned about through the apostles and tradition, became a physical man.</span></p><p> </p><p></p><p>Possibly at a later date. Right now I'm having a lot of trouble getting you to answer a few basic questions about this topic, so I'd rather not veer off to another one.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AlexBP, post: 57107442, member: 261211"] [SIZE=3]Okay [B]merle[/B], I'll answer that question in a minute. But first of all, let me point back to a question that I asked you. In post #262 I asked this: "[COLOR=black][SIZE=3]Jews expected the messiah to be a flesh-and-blood human being.[/SIZE] [/COLOR][COLOR=black][SIZE=3]Can you show me a single piece of evidence that [I]any [/I]Jewish group believed otherwise?" Why did you not answer my question? Why are you instead trying to put the burden of proof upon me? My question was a straightforward yes-no question and I don't see why you couldn't give it a straightforward yes-no answer. I rather suspect that the reason why you refused to answer is that your answer would have to be 'no'. Of course, if your answer is 'yes' then you're welcome to provide the evidence for it.[/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE] [SIZE=3]So now back to the question that you asked me. How do I know that the Jews thought of the Messiah as only a flesh-and-blood person? Luckily for me, I've already answered this in #262 so I can just quote what I've already said.[/SIZE] [SIZE=3][/SIZE] [SIZE=3]Now if, on top of that, I wanted more evidence of what Jewish beliefs about the Messiah were during the first century I have plenty of other sources. I could look to Josephus and see what he wrote about messianic beliefs and messianic pretenders. I could look to pagan historians such as Tacitus who discussed it somewhat. I could look to Philo of Alexandria and note that even though he broke ground in putting metaphorical and spiritual interpretations on many Old Testament passages, he nonetheless believed in the messiah as a descendant of David. I could even point out that Maimonides, writing in the Middle Ages, listed belief in an earthly messiah as one of the key tenets that all Jews had to follow. I could point to the Talmud, which says a great deal about the messiah and all of it simply assuming a descendant of David. So there's no shortage of evidence that first-century Jews believed the messiah could only be a physical human descended from David. But again, the ball's in your court. I've asked you to list a single example of a first-century Jewish movement that didn't believe the messiah to be a human descendant of David. Now it's up to you to do so.[/SIZE] [SIZE=3][/SIZE] [SIZE=3]Can I see such a list or do I just have to take your word on its existence?[/SIZE] [SIZE=3][/SIZE] [SIZE=3]He does say that the Jesus, who he learned about through the apostles and tradition, became a physical man.[/SIZE] [SIZE=3][/SIZE] Possibly at a later date. Right now I'm having a lot of trouble getting you to answer a few basic questions about this topic, so I'd rather not veer off to another one. [/QUOTE]
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