Did God predestine the Fall?

redleghunter · Dec 21, 2018

David Cabrera said:
Because the Bible does not teach Calvinism and you put your own ideas to the Bible.

Will you address the Scriptures presented or not?

Here we can get a fresh start:

Did God predestine the Fall?

redleghunter · Dec 22, 2018

David Cabrera said:
Yes, that is why Jesus was the plan. Humans were created with the chance of being immortal and in communion with God, your problem is that you think humans no choosing God makes him weak, when in reality forcing someone to love him makes him weak.

Can you point out where I indicated people are forced to love God?

Not David · Dec 22, 2018

bbbbbbb said:
Who created Adam and Eve? Did He create flawed creatures? If not, how did the flaws find their way into them?

He didn't create robots.

Not David · Dec 22, 2018

Hammster said:
I think you misunderstood the question. At least I hope you did. So let me try this.

Is God obligated to save anyone?

No, but it would go against his character of a God who loves mankind.

redleghunter · Dec 22, 2018

David Cabrera said:
Not really, redemption could be predestined because God knew what would happen not that he wanted the Fall to happen.

Explain how predestined equals foreknowledge.

Not David · Dec 22, 2018

redleghunter said:
Can you point out where I indicated people are forced to love God?

By holding the preserverance of the Saints position.

redleghunter · Dec 22, 2018

dad said:
His plan included us choosing of course. Asking. Repenting...etc, not some magic decree for certain privileged folks...while other less fortunates got to burn forever in hell by the wave of the same wand.

If you followed the Scriptures posted you would not have made the uninformed comments above:

Did God predestine the Fall?

redleghunter · Dec 22, 2018

David Cabrera said:
By holding the preserverance of the Saints position.

You don't think the saints persevere?

I'll note the Scriptures posted had more to God preserving those He atones for.

Did God predestine the Fall?

redleghunter · Dec 22, 2018

dad said:
Looking at the meaning of ordain from the Greek I see this,

to put in order, to station

to place in a certain order, to arrange, to assign a place, to appoint

to assign (appoint) a thing to one

New Testament Greek - StudyLight.org

So if we say Adam was ordained I guess it means a place in certain order was assigned. So, if he was made partially to be able to choose to obey or not, that is the order. As opposed to some pre determined free will overriding scheme.

Which context does this belong in?

Not David · Dec 22, 2018

redleghunter said:
Explain how predestined equals foreknowledge.

Isn't God omniscient?

redleghunter · Dec 22, 2018

bbbbbbb said:
I always find the modern entitlement mentality which pervades all of our culture to be strange, at best, and bizarre, at worst. All we are entitled to from God Almighty is an eternity in the Lake of Fire which burns forever and ever. I thank God constantly for His indescribable gift (II Corinthians 9:15).

Indeed. It's as if Christianity in the post modern West forgot the meaning of Grace. It's unmerited and completely paid for in Christ Jesus.

To our human sensibilities and decades of post-modern victim class mentality, yes I see why people demand that everyone has a 'fair' and equal chance to choose Christ. Scripture however, does not support this.

dad · Dec 22, 2018

redleghunter said:
Which context does this belong in?

Hamster asked about Adam, and offered choices that included ordained.

redleghunter · Dec 22, 2018

David Cabrera said:
Isn't God omniscient?

That answers somewhat Foreknowledge. But not when Foreknowledge and Predestined are used in the same verse and context as in Acts 2:23.

You have seen this before and yet to deal with it:

Acts 2: NASB
22“Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know— 23this Man,delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24“But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power. (NASB)

Bolded and underlined above...Did God wait for the godless men to decide to arrest, try and execute Jesus for His plan to unfold. No, it was God's predetermined plan and with His foreknowledge. Now answer this...Did those godless men choose to arrest, try and execute Jesus according to their free will/choice? Yes or no?

Seen here as well:

Acts 4: NASB
27“For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.

dad · Dec 22, 2018

redleghunter said:
If you followed the Scriptures posted you would not have made the uninformed comments above:

Did God predestine the Fall?

Try addressing the issues raised rather than posting snibbling accusations.

dad · Dec 22, 2018

redleghunter said:
Bolded and underlined above...Did God wait for the godless men to decide to arrest, try and execute Jesus for His plan to unfold. No, it was God's predetermined plan and with His foreknowledge. Now answer this...Did those godless men choose to arrest, try and execute Jesus according to their free will/choice? Yes or no?

Of course they did. God knew Judas would dip the sop with Him, you thought that meant that He possessed Judas and practiced mind control to make him do it!!? Ha. No. It was probably more like having seen the future.

Not David · Dec 22, 2018

redleghunter said:
That's an odd question on how I explained the human will .

Well, Jesus had a human will so his is also involved.

Not David · Dec 22, 2018

Serving Zion said:
Clearly not: James 1:13, Genesis 3:14, Genesis 6:6.

.. but you seem to know this already.. I don't see that your understanding is lacking, can you please confirm your motive?

Well, I wanted originally to know if all Calvinists believe God was responsible for the Fall, but now I am just refuting the ideas.

Not David · Dec 22, 2018

@redleghunter
I like Fr. Lawrence's explanation so I will show it:
This understanding of proginosko also informs St. Paul’s meaning in Romans 8:29, where after saying that God causes everything to work together to help us in our salvation (v. 28) he writes, that those “whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He might be the first-born among many brethren”. The word translated “predestined” is the Greek proorizo/ προοριζω, literally to pre-appoint, orizo meaning “to appoint, to order, to designate”. The word orizo is used of a prophet ordering a meal (in Didache 11:9), and of God appointing Jesus Christ to be the Saviour (in Acts 17:31), and of Him designating Jesus as the Son of God by raising Him from the dead (in Romans 1:4). The word proorizo therefore means that God pre-appointed those whom He foreknew would believe in Jesus to be conformed to Christ’s image. The emphasis in not on individual’s choice for or against Christ, but on corporate destiny; it does not answer the question, “Who gets saved and how?”, but rather, “What is God planning to do for those whom He foreknew would believe?” The answer: their destiny is to be conformed to the image of Christ, so that all that Christ is by nature He shares with them by grace. Thus Christ is but the first-born of many brethren; all of God’s people are pre-appointed to be like Jesus.

Paul says the same thing in Ephesians 1:4-5. Paul begins his doxology for God’s work in Christ by blessing Him because He has given us every spiritual blessing through our union with Christ in the heavenlies (v. 1). Unlike the rest of the world, Christians enjoyed heavenly and transcendent blessedness through their incorporation into Christ. This, St. Paul goes on to say, is the outworking of God’s eternal plan, for “He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before Him”. In Christ and through our union with Him God “predestined us (Greek proorizo) to adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself” (v. 4-5). Note: the content of this predestination and pre-appointing is not our inclusion or exclusion in salvation, but what such a salvation consists of— namely, being “holy and blameless before Him”, our “adoption to sonship”. As God’s sons, we are thus brothers of Christ, and He is therefore “the first among many brethren”.
Some Jews of Paul’s day indignantly insisted that if this was the case, then God was being unjust, for all Jews must be saved, regardless of whether or not they rejected Jesus (wickedly rejected, as Christians thought). Paul’s answer? “Who are you, O man, to answer back to God?” (9:20). If God wants to judge those who wickedly reject His Christ, what did they have to say about it? The potter can choose what he does with his clay, and in the same way, if He wishes, God can choose to use their prideful rejection of Christ as the catalyst of His long-deferred judgment upon them.

redleghunter · Dec 22, 2018

dad said:
Of course they did. God knew Judas would dip the sop with Him, you thought that meant that He possessed Judas and practiced mind control to make him do it!!? Ha. No. It was probably more like having seen the future.

You did not address the entire passage.

I'll boil it down. The arrest, torture of Jesus Christ....was This God's predetermined plan?

If a predetermined plan then what will was exercised by those involved?

redleghunter · Dec 22, 2018

David Cabrera said:
Well, Jesus had a human will so his is also involved.

Of course.

Did God predestine the Fall?

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