Did God know...

[JM]

that He was creating some men that would reject Him and His offer of salvation? If God created those that would reject His offer, did God create some men for destruction?

 

[Cright]

I believe that God knows what happens before it does... but that he created us to love us. He knew that some would not accept their gift, but he still wants to love us, and I think that he'd perfer us to love him of our own free will, instead of an internal robotic feeling inside that tells us to.


Carina

 

[JM]

I believe that God knows what happens before it does... but that he created us to love us. He knew that some would not accept their gift, but he still wants to love us, and I think that he'd perfer us to love him of our own free will, instead of an internal robotic feeling inside that tells us to.


Carina

Good points, did God create use to love us or to show His glory by creating? I agree, no one ever comes into the Kingdom kicking and screaming but rather running.

 

[BT]

that He was creating some men that would reject Him and His offer of salvation? If God created those that would reject His offer, did God create some men for destruction?

God knows everything from "before the foundations of the world". He is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient. The question then could be, "Why did He create men who He knew would reject him?". I do not believe that He created men for the specific purpose of destruction. I can not conceive that God is sitting around before time and saying, "Ok this guy we're going to bring to heaven, this guy we're going to put in hell." I don't think God played a big game of eeny-meeny-miny-mo with our eternal souls. This does not fit with the teachings of the Bible. So I would say (and agree with Carina whole-heartedly) that God created certain men, despite the fact that He knew they would not accept His gift of salvation, which was made for allmen. But a very tricky question indeed.

 

[JM]

Hey BT,

Funny finding you here.

Why did God create mankind in the first place, for His glory. Mankind, all mankind is heading for hell and if God calls all men why don't all men come?

This is the problem, if all means all, then all will be saved. We can't have it both ways, we can't say, yup all means all...then say well all only means all when they come. Or can we? We see in Scripture (and I can't remember exactly) where God calls Israel and the word says, 'all Israel came out.' Does all mean all?

I don't know, it's getting late...night.

 

[BT]

Hi SP

Does God call all men? I think when God called Israel and the "all came out" it means all of Isreal. That's the only way I think you can read it.

Naturally the most famous verse in the scripture is John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I don't want to get off track but it seems that there is a condition here of belief on man's part. Salvation is free to all men (whosoever is inclusive not exclusive), who believe.

All mankind is heading towards hell, but it was because of man's sin not God's plan. Consider in Matthew 25:41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" Hell was prepared for "the devil and his angels" not man. The gift is open to all, but not forced on any.

Get some sleep brother. We can pick it up tomorrow, and I'm hoping that a nice discussion does not turn into a not so nice one (not you and I, I mean when others jump in).

I'm trying to finish off my "Satanology" for the night but my eyes are getting heavy too

 

[OracleX]

This sort of thing can really hurt your head.

God being outside of time isn't bound by time and exisits in all times. So when did this happen for God? God is God and exists how He exists and only references time for our behalf because if you take away time, it doesn't make sense for us.

Ok now where did I put my Advil...

 

[JM]

This sort of thing can really hurt your head.

God being outside of time isn't bound by time and exisits in all times. So when did this happen for God? God is God and exists how He exists and only references time for our behalf because if you take away time, it doesn't make sense for us.

Ok now where did I put my Advil...

Not really, the point I was trying to get at is, God knows who is saved and who isn't. God made both the saved and condemned, knowing that most of His creation would be sent to hell...

 

[Razorbuck]

I am kinda slow. Are we asking if God created some folks for destruction?

If I understand y'all correctly, we're trying to decide the age old question "does foreknowledge equal foreordination" (predestination, call it what you like).

Is this a correct statement, or am I missing something?

 

[BT]

That would be a correct statement, but we're avoiding the age old TULIP debate (i.e. Election).

 

[Razorbuck]

Thanks for the clarification BT.

My two cents:

Just because GOD knew that some men would reject Him doesn't mean He caused them to reject Him. Wouldn't that make our Lord the author of sin?

I agree with StreetPreacher that GOD created man for His glory. Is it not glorious that a perfect GOD created beings to fellowship with Himself, knowing some would reject His perfection and that He Himself would have to take on the sin He hates in order to redeem them? Can there be a more glorious embodiment of love than this?

Scripture is clear: "whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

At least it seems clear to me. Is anyone suggesting there lives a soul upon the earth that cannot be saved?

Blessings to ALL,

Razorbuck

 

[BT]

Thanks for the clarification BT.


Is anyone suggesting there lives a soul upon the earth that cannot be saved?

Yes there are some who suggest this. Not I. But some.

 

[Tenorvoice]

There does come a point and time in some peoples life that there harts will be hardened and will reject the offer of salvation no matter how many times that the gospel is presented to them. The drawback is that we as being humans, we have no idea when that time comes. So we are to keep presenting the Gospel to them and presenting the offer of salvation untill they are dead and gone.

Only God knows who is in the Book of life and who is not.

 

[JM]

Thanks for the clarification BT.

My two cents:

Just because GOD knew that some men would reject Him doesn't mean He caused them to reject Him. Wouldn't that make our Lord the author of sin?

I agree with StreetPreacher that GOD created man for His glory. Is it not glorious that a perfect GOD created beings to fellowship with Himself, knowing some would reject His perfection and that He Himself would have to take on the sin He hates in order to redeem them? Can there be a more glorious embodiment of love than this?

Scripture is clear: "whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

At least it seems clear to me. Is anyone suggesting there lives a soul upon the earth that cannot be saved?

Blessings to ALL,

Razorbuck

Whosoever will... What is the will of man? Is it fallen or is it one that is in compliance with God? If we can will our salvation, isn't that like saving ourselves?

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 

[BT]

Ah Romans 9. I had wondered how long it would take until this was posted.

Fortunately for us. Romans 9 has little (some might say nothing) to do with us. It rather is speak to the Jews.

The whole thrust of the argument in Romans 9 is that justification is by faith alone even in the case of the Jew. In this matter God is sovereign and unchallengable.

In Romans 9 Pauls has taken events and people in the nation's past to demonstrate God's sovereignty in history. He has then allegorised these true stories to illustrate and teach the great doctrine of justification by faith. In chapter 10 he goes on to elaborate on Israel's present failure to enter into the gospel blessing because of their ignorance of God's righteousness and their failure to grasp the significance of the finished work of Christ. Israel's guilt and responsibility are established beyond doubt in Paul's moving quotation from the the prophecy of Isaiah "But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."

election has nothing to do with salvation. Predestination and election do not refer to certain people of the world becoming saved or lost, but they relate to those who are already children of God in respect to certain privileges or postions out ahead; they look forward to what God will work in those who have become His own.

In some cases the term elect is used as a collective title of dignity for the saints, as in Romans 8:33 "Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect?" It should be observed that the term elect never applies to sinners yet to be saved, but always to saints. Elect is not what you already are when you are born, rather it is what you become when you are born again.

 

[JM]

Even if Romans 9 isn't speaking of election, (Is Romans 9:21 only meant for the Jews? see Romans 9:24 for a different understanding) we need to take into consideration other key passages. (That's my Pastors understanding of Romans 9)

See Rev. 17:8 you'll see that the book of life was written before the foundations of the world.

Romans 8:11 says that it is Christ that quickens you. Never does it mention anything that says that the creature is the one who decides.

Romans 8:15 says we are adopted. How many adopted children do you know that picked their parents?

Romans 8:20 says that we are made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope. UNWILLINGLY!

Romans 8:23 says we are waiting for the adoption.

Romans 8:28 says that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. How can he have a purpose if he hasnt already chosen?

Romans 9:11 says for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. Does it say anything about the creature calling? Notice that he says for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil. Where is choice mentioned?

Well, we can be sure that at least one was lost on purpose. John 17:12

God foreknew them, that is, he has known them before hand; He had been in a love relationship with them (Romans 8:28).

If Romans 9 is dealing with the Jew and the Jew only, are the following Jewish as well?

Acts 13:48 Those who were ordained believed.
Acts 18:27 Those who believed did so through grace.
Philippians 1:29 Granted to us to believe.
Philippians 2:12-13 God wills his pleasure in us.
1 Thessalonians 1:4-5 Because chosen, the word came in.
power of Holy Spirit and not just words of men.
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 God chose them from the beginning to be saved.
James 2:5 God has chosen the poor to become rich to faith.
BT, it's good talking with you.

 

[Mother Vashti]

that He was creating some men that would reject Him and His offer of salvation? If God created those that would reject His offer, did God create some men for destruction?

Because they still deserve the right to live?

People are constantly cawing about God being unfair for sending people to hell, but it always seemed to me that a God who allows you to put forth whatever is in your heart, even if it hurts his loved ones, .... is one "fair" god indeed.

 

[JM]

Because they still deserve the right to live?

People are constantly cawing about God being unfair for sending people to hell, but it always seemed to me that a God who allows you to put forth whatever is in your heart, even if it hurts his loved ones, .... is one "fair" god indeed.

God chooses whom He will save without regard to any distinctives in the person (Ephesians 1:5-6; Acts 13:48; Revelation 17:8), so also he decides whom He will not save without regard to any distinctives in the individual (John 10:26; 12:37-40; Romans 9:11-18; 1 Peter 2:7-8).

 

[Mother Vashti]

So God decided to save you, but not the man beside you? Perhaps he has given you more responsibility. Your job isn't to ride in the back of a float and be the Princess; you're suppose to be aiding the man beside you.

In other words, if you are implying that God designates people to die, I wholly disagree. No one is intentionally left behind.

 

[BT]

Even if Romans 9 isn't speaking of election, (Is Romans 9:21 only meant for the Jews? see Romans 9:24 for a different understanding) we need to take into consideration other key passages. (That's my Pastors understanding of Romans 9)

See Rev. 17:8 you'll see that the book of life was written before the foundations of the world.

Romans 8:11 says that it is Christ that quickens you. Never does it mention anything that says that the creature is the one who decides.

Romans 8:15 says we are adopted. How many adopted children do you know that picked their parents?

Romans 8:20 says that we are made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope. UNWILLINGLY!

Romans 8:23 says we are waiting for the adoption.

Romans 8:28 says that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. How can he have a purpose if he hasnt already chosen?

Romans 9:11 says for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. Does it say anything about the creature calling? Notice that he says for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil. Where is choice mentioned?

Well, we can be sure that at least one was lost on purpose. John 17:12

God foreknew them, that is, he has known them before hand; He had been in a love relationship with them (Romans 8:28).

If Romans 9 is dealing with the Jew and the Jew only, are the following Jewish as well?

Acts 13:48 Those who were ordained believed.
Acts 18:27 Those who believed did so through grace.
Philippians 1:29 Granted to us to believe.
Philippians 2:12-13 God wills his pleasure in us.
1 Thessalonians 1:4-5 Because chosen, the word came in.
power of Holy Spirit and not just words of men.
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 God chose them from the beginning to be saved.
James 2:5 God has chosen the poor to become rich to faith.
BT, it's good talking with you.

Ack! This is a huge post it's going to take me some time to wade through this all. I suppose it is best to therefore begin at the beginning. My friend, do not let this upset you.

Romans 9:21 - Yes this is an allegory to the Jews regarding Israel and the Gentiles. This goes with (as you mentioned) 9:24

Rev 17:8 - has nothing to do with election.

Romans 8:11 - still nothing to do with election. Christ quickens you... yes salvation is His power. Quickens means brings you alive..

Romans 8:15 - Yes we have received the spirit of adoption. Still nothing to do with election. The term adoption is Pauline and refers to the permanence of our inheritance. The argument from silence does not work on this scripture (does a child pick a parent... often a parent is picked by lineage, successor, even a kinsman redeemer. Paul's point has nothing to do with election)


Romans 9 - I already mentioned the purpose of the story here.

John 17:12 - Judas' sin was his own, you misuderstand the term "son of perdition"

Acts 13:48 - the misunderstanding here comes from the term ordained (read 10 commentaries you get 5 of one 5 of the other)

Acts 18:27 - I don't see the issue here. We all believe by grace. Still has nothing to do with election.

Philipians 1:29 - Way out of context.

Look we could go through this for a hundred years... it's been going on around us for thousands.. If you want I can give you a bunch of verses to explain and I think they will be much more difficult...

like
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Here's a tricky one..

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

And the top of them all

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Creating a person for destruction and giving that person no way out, sentencing this person (before they have ever sinned) to an eternity of torment. My friend, that is not love.

The gift is to all. If a person ends up in hell they will only be able to blame themselves. That is the key.