Did God give Miller a false message on purpose?

RC_NewProtestants · Mar 24, 2008

It might be helpful to understand EGW's views when sections of Early writings were written. The book is supposed to represent her earliest visions. Her assumption at that time was that the door of salvation was shut. We even see that in 1882 they edited Early Writings to get rid of the more blatant Shut door views. See quote below.

Under the shut door assumption God could have given Miller the first angels message to prepare for the coming and since the door of salvation was shut it would still be consistent with God to tell this supposed truth to Miller as a way to prepare the sincere for the return of Christ.

The problem for Adventism is that Ellen White was wrong. The message of the shut door was wrong and that made the idea that Miller received the first angels message from God was also wrong. The Adventist church acknowledges the error of the shut door and even acknowledges Ellen White believed it. But they have never taken the time to correct the implications that are found in her early works which are based upon the shut door perspective.

There is no way either ignoring or correcting her false views will help EGW as a prophet. Thus the easiest course has been to ignore them and hope people don't look too close which is why the problems with EGW keep cropping up again and again. It is also why many don't use Ellen White much and why others will only take her in a pastoral way.

We now present the evidence to show that the foregoing quotation, in which Elder Butler says that the work he speaks of contains ALL of Mrs. White's "early writings" is absolutely untrue and deceptive. The earliest writings of Mrs. White were published by Elder White in 1847, in a small pamphlet of only twenty-four pages, entitled "A Word to the Little Flock." The work to which Elder Butler refers, as containing all of her early writings, published in 1882, claims to be an exact reprint of all her early visions. Now note carefully, that, commencing at the beginning of her first vision, as published in 1847, we read down thirty-three lines and discover that the late republished work agrees with the old on nearly word for word, only a few slight changes without altering the sense. But at the end of the thirty-third line we find that four lines have been omitted or "suppressed." These read as follows:

"It was just as impossible for them [those who gave up their faith in the 1844 movement] to get on the path again and go to the city, AS ALL THE WICKED WORLD WHICH GOD HAD REJECTED. They fell all along the path, one after another."
These lines are found on page 14 of the edition of 1847. They are not to be found in the later editions of the visions published in 1851 and in 1882. We have all three editions in our possession. Why were these few lines left out? Because at the 1847 date Mrs. White believed in the "shut door" theory, and claimed that by divine revelation God had shown her that "all the wicked world which God had rejected" was lost forever. In the autumn of 1851 and in 1882 she no longer believed that theory; hence these lines had to be omitted. Here God's professed prophetic messenger dared to tamper with an alleged divine revelation.

http://www.ellenwhite.org/canright/can8.htm

Jimlarmore · Mar 24, 2008

I posted here and the post was lost. Is there a problem with the server or site software?

God Bless
Jim Larmore

RC_NewProtestants · Mar 23, 2008

Jimlarmore said:
I posted here and the post was lost. Is there a problem with the server or site software?

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Yes the software has problems, you may find you post in a previous page

Edit
Then when I posted it gave this message

The following errors occurred when this message was submitted

But it still posted and if you can read this it let me edit.

Jimlarmore · Mar 24, 2008

tall73 said:
And did they believe that Because God told them a lie? Did Jesus ever say He was going to do that? Did He then test them on whether they believed the lie He told them?

NO!

What did Jesus tell them?

I'm going to try this one more time and hope it gets posted.

The things Christ told His disciples and what they wanted to believe were probably two separate things. I think some of what happened in 1844 may apply to that same scenario. Christ told them to repent for the kingdom of God was at hand. That could have been taken that God was going to come right away or set up the nation of Israel if you wanted to believe that. They just didn't understand all of what was being communicated. He also made a statement that was later applied to the transfiguration that at the time could have been taken to have apocalyptic applications. I am chosing not to rely on EGW's writings on the 1844 truth but to rely on what the Bible tells us about the sanctuary and Christ's movement thru it. At this point I am comfortable with the IJ starting in 1844. I am not comfortable with Christ entering the most Holy at that time because of scriptural evidence but the judgement of the dead for the unfallen angels and other beings thru out the universe yes.

The disciples were not disappointed because of what Jesus said.

But Ellen says that people were disappointed because God gave Miller a lying message that contradicted His own word. And He those who didn't believe the lie He was angry with.

Those are not at all the same.

That is not what she says and you know it. What you are implying is based on prejudiced adverse perceptiions on the writings of the spirit of prophecy to impune it if possible or to put it in a negative light at the least.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

tall73 · Mar 24, 2008

Jimlarmore said:
That is not what she says and you know it. What you are implying is based on prejudiced adverse perceptiions on the writings of the spirit of prophecy to impune it if possible or to put it in a negative light at the least.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Jim, did she or did she not say that the message in 1843 was of heaven?

Did she or did she not say that God kindled His anger against those who rejected it?

Loveaboveall · Mar 24, 2008

tall73 said:
Ellen says that God was in the message that Jesus would come in 1843. God intentionally gave a "heaven-sent" message to Miller that was factually inaccurate. This message was a test. And those who rejected this testing message were working with Satan.

I think it is an unassailable fact that Jesus did not come in 1843, nor did He come in 1844. So how could God be behind this lying message? How were those who rejected the message on Scriptural grounds in league with Satan? Why was God's anger kindled against those who trusted in their Bibles?

Did she say God sent an untrue message, or God did not allow them to fully understand the prophecies at that time? There is a big difference b/w the two. One God is holding back revealing the truth of a prophecy for a specific purpose, the other view says that God lied to bring about a specific thing.

God does not lie, ever. But that does not mean that he always gives us full knowledge at the specific time we want it.

Gareth · Mar 24, 2008

Pythons said:
He gave the Mormons and JW's some false messages as well.

Actually that kind of smacks that God deliberately sets out to mislead. If that is the case who's to say you're not being misled too?

djconklin · Mar 24, 2008

Excellant point Stormy!

Did God give Miller the message that Jesus was coming in 1843 in your view?

That was only part of it, not the whole.

Was the message of Jesus return in 1843 a false message?

Since that was only part of the whole msg and since it got people to pay attention to the state of their soul and to turn to Christ, no.

Pythons · Mar 23, 2008

djconklin said:
Excellant point Stormy!

That was only part of it, not the whole.

Since that was only part of the whole msg and since it got people to pay attention to the state of their soul and to turn to Christ, no.

I think Talls question is still standing. Does the end justify the means used to get there Djconklin?

Pythons · Mar 23, 2008

djconklin said:
Excellant point Stormy!

That was only part of it, not the whole.

Since that was only part of the whole msg and since it got people to pay attention to the state of their soul and to turn to Christ, no.

Is it Biblical, whereas a prophet is concerned that the end justifiy the means used to get there? Tall73,s question is still standing.

Jimlarmore · Mar 24, 2008

tall73 said:
Jim, did she or did she not say that the message in 1843 was of heaven?

Did she or did she not say that God kindled His anger against those who rejected it?

Yes but that does not mean that she was saying God gave Miller a false or lying message as you are trying to imply. What you have to look at is what God gave them at the time. This movement surrounding Dan 8:14 was not just focused on a small group of folks in New England. This movement was world wide and had global ramifications. This time period I think relates to the time of the end spoken of in Rev 10 and we are still learning today things from Biblical research.

I think we need to ask ourselves a very simple question and that is this. Does God always give us everything we wonder about prophetically in the Bible? I don't think so. Otherwise the Bible wouldn't tell us that we could expect visions and dreams to clear up things right up to the very end of time. Your focus , and rightly so, has been on the IJ and the denominations lack of Biblical support for it. I see things differently than you do and find a lot more Biblical support for it than you. However, now you have even started questioning fundamental truths like the Sabbath which shows me that your path is not in the right direction at all. Pardon me if that sounds offensive or inflamatory. I'll delete this if you don't like it. It's just the way I see it.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

freeindeed2 · Mar 23, 2008

djconklin said:
Excellant point Stormy!

That was only part of it, not the whole.

But that 'part' of it was wrong, and EGW said it was exactly as God had directed it.

Since that was only part of the whole msg and since it got people to pay attention to the state of their soul and to turn to Christ, no.

God doesn't use a false message or even 'part' of a message to get people to 'do' anything. According to the SOP God had directed it, it was as he wanted it to be, and he hid the errors that he directed.

In CHRIST alone...

freeindeed2 · Mar 24, 2008

djconklin said:
Excellant point Stormy!

That was only part of it, not the whole.

But that 'part' of it was wrong, and EGW said it was exactly as God had directed it.

Since that was only part of the whole msg and since it got people to pay attention to the state of their soul and to turn to Christ, no.

God doesn't use a false message or even 'part' of a message to get people to 'do' anything. According to the SOP God had directed it, it was as he wanted it to be, and he hid the errors that he directed.

In CHRIST alone...

Bourbaki · Mar 24, 2008

tall73 said:
Notice the following quotes from Early Writings.

I saw that God was in the proclamation of the time in 1843. It was His design to arouse the people and bring them to a testing point, where they should decide for or against the truth. Ministers were convinced of the correctness of the positions taken on the prophetic periods, and some renounced their pride, and left their salaries and their churches to go forth from place to place to give the message. But as the message from heaven could find a place in the hearts of but few of the professed ministers of Christ, the work was laid upon many who were not preachers. Some left their fields to sound the message, while others were called from their shops and their merchandise. And even some professional men were compelled to leave their professions to engage in the unpopular work of giving the first angel's message. {EW 232.2}

I saw the people of God joyful in expectation, looking for their Lord. But God designed to prove them. His hand covered a mistake in the reckoning of the prophetic periods. Those who were looking for their Lord did not discover this mistake, and the most learned men who opposed the time also failed to see it. God designed that His people should meet with a disappointment. The time passed, and those who had looked with joyful expectation for their Saviour were sad and disheartened, while those who had not loved the appearing of Jesus, but embraced the message through fear, were pleased that He did not come at the time of expectation. Their profession had not affected the heart and purified the life. The passing of the time was well calculated to reveal such hearts.
236
They were the first to turn and ridicule the sorrowful, disappointed ones who really loved the appearing of their Saviour. I saw the wisdom of God in proving His people and giving them a searching test to discover those who would shrink and turn back in the hour of trial. {EW 235.3}

Jesus and all the heavenly host looked with sympathy and love upon those who had with sweet expectation longed to see Him whom their souls loved. Angels were hovering around them, to sustain them in the hour of their trial. Those who had neglected to receive the heavenly message were left in darkness, and God's anger was kindled against them, because they would not receive the light which He had sent them from heaven. Those faithful, disappointed ones, who could not understand why their Lord did not come, were not left in darkness. Again they were led to their Bibles to search the prophetic periods. The hand of the Lord was removed from the figures, and the mistake was explained. They saw that the prophetic periods reached to 1844, and that the same evidence which they had presented to show that the prophetic periods closed in 1843, proved that they would terminate in 1844. Light from the Word of God shone upon their position, and they discovered a tarrying time--"Though it [the vision] tarry, wait for it." In their love for Christ's immediate coming, they had overlooked the tarrying of the vision, which was calculated to manifest the true waiting ones. Again they had a point of time. Yet I saw that many of them could not rise above their severe disappointment to possess that degree of zeal and energy which had marked their faith in 1843. {EW 236.1}

Satan and his angels triumphed over them, and those who would not receive the message congratulated themselves upon their farseeing judgment and wisdom
237
in not receiving the delusion, as they called it. They did not realize that they were rejecting the counsel of God against themselves, and were working in union with Satan and his angels to perplex God's people, who were living out the heaven-sent message. {EW 236.2}

Ellen says that God was in the message that Jesus would come in 1843. God intentionally gave a "heaven-sent" message to Miller that was factually inaccurate. This message was a test. And those who rejected this testing message were working with Satan.

Did God give Daniel a false message on purpose?

freeindeed2 · Mar 24, 2008

Bourbaki said:
Did God give Daniel a false message on purpose?

It always amazes me how willing people are to try to cast doubt on confirmed and established Biblical prophets and Scripture in order to defend EGW. EGW is not canon! Why are you so willing to doubt the Bible???

In CHRIST alone...

freeindeed2 · Mar 24, 2008

Bourbaki said:
Did God give Daniel a false message on purpose?

It always amazes me how willing people are to try to cast doubt on confirmed and established Biblical prophets and Scripture in order to defend EGW. EGW is not canon! Why are you so willing to doubt the Bible or attempt to cast it into negative light???

In CHRIST alone...

tall73 · Mar 25, 2008

Jimlarmore said:
Yes but that does not mean that she was saying God gave Miller a false or lying message as you are trying to imply. What you have to look at is what God gave them at the time. This movement surrounding Dan 8:14 was not just focused on a small group of folks in New England. This movement was world wide and had global ramifications. This time period I think relates to the time of the end spoken of in Rev 10 and we are still learning today things from Biblical research.

Huh?

My term for he event was that it was a false message.

No Ellen didn't call it a lie. Though she did say that God hid an error.

But it clearly was a false message.

Did or did not Jesus come in 1843? No. He did not. So to say that the message was anything but false is dead wrong.

I think we need to ask ourselves a very simple question and that is this. Does God always give us everything we wonder about prophetically in the Bible? I don't think so. Otherwise the Bible wouldn't tell us that we could expect visions and dreams to clear up things right up to the very end of time. Your focus , and rightly so, has been on the IJ and the denominations lack of Biblical support for it. I see things differently than you do and find a lot more Biblical support for it than you. However, now you have even started questioning fundamental truths like the Sabbath which shows me that your path is not in the right direction at all. Pardon me if that sounds offensive or inflamatory. I'll delete this if you don't like it. It's just the way I see it.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

It is just not possible to reason around this passage Jim. She said that God tested people on whether they accepted Miller's message.

Miller's message was WRONG and against the Scriptures.

tall73 · Mar 25, 2008

djconklin said:
Excellant point Stormy!

That was only part of it, not the whole.

Since that was only part of the whole msg and since it got people to pay attention to the state of their soul and to turn to Christ, no.

Jesus coming in 1843 was the message.

And many of those were not able to get the same faith back she said. Ie the disappointment over a false message DISCOURAGED some in their faith, just as she in later years said time setting did.

djconklin · Mar 25, 2008

IF he properly knew Hebrew(which he didn't) he would KNOW that the day-year principle CANNOT be applied to erev-boker and make sense. It can be applied to yowm and make sense but not to erev-boker.

Where's the proof?

djconklin · Mar 25, 2008

Originally Posted by djconklin

That was only part of it, not the whole.

Click to expand...

But that 'part' of it was wrong, and EGW said it was exactly as God had directed it.

You are assuming that God gave the whole msg. You are assuming that EGW is referring to the whole msg.

Since that was only part of the whole msg and since it got people to pay attention to the state of their soul and to turn to Christ, no.

Click to expand...

God doesn't use a false message or even 'part' of a message to get people to 'do' anything. According to the SOP God had directed it, it was as he wanted it to be, and he hid the errors that he directed.

Where's the proof ab't what God does or doesn't do?

He hid the errors till the time came that they should be known to reveal who really was sincere and who was not. Those who followed the Bible persevered through the test. Those who followed the crowd and hoped, apparently, to coast in, did not keep the faith because they didn't have faith in God to begin with.

Did God give Miller a false message on purpose?

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