Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
When God created the heavens and the earth, he also created a tree that represented the possibilities of Good and Evil .. however .. it was Adam who unleashed this possibility of evil into the world.
I notice the "the beast" was already fallen, already evil, already working against Gods will for Adam and Eve.
Maybe but, if there was nothing (in) Adam for the serpent to work off of, then that would have never been either.
Such as:
Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
If I understand this correctly, since Adam and Eve arrived on earth as full grown adults, educated and instructed in Gods will for the pair, spoke the same language as the beast. It they didn't know Gods will then they would not have sinned?
I don't think Adam knew what death was do you? After all, this is what the serpent tempted him with. He knew God said not to eat, and if he did he would die. But as far as his understanding fully of what that was...I don't think so.
The same as today, many still believe that when God told Adam he would die, that He meant laying down this physical body, and is still a deception that the serpent uses on many. Many still don't know what God means by die or death.
And if ....by The Law IS The Knowledge of sin.....Then what did Adam really eat of?
No, you don't understand what I'm saying.....so never mind.
What does evil really mean? H7451 ra` rahI would rather say, God made evil possible. In this matter I think it is good to understand what evil really means. One example of this is the book of Job. As it tells, Satan asks permission from God to do the evil things Satan wanted. God allowed it and so Satan went and did what he wanted, many evil things. The evil things were not from God, but God made it possible by not preventing them.
Surely you do not expect scripture to change 'made up minds' do you? I've stayed away here because Bubba never refuted my position in the other thread. He just jumped ship and started over here IMO. Well let me help 'a little' in regard to more scripture, then I'm probably off.
Amos 3:6 Is a trumpet blown in a city, and the people are not afraid? Does evil befall a city, unless the LORD has done it?
By "done it" I'm sure God didn't show up with a week wacker. He just went to his created 'source' and used him, just like He did with Job.
Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith who blows the fire of coals, and produces a weapon for its purpose. I have also created the ravager to destroy;
You said calamities scripture says evil. Pretty cut and dried IMO.hillsage,
1. These scriptures of God creating evil has to do with calamities for it rains on the just and the unjust and God is the one who is a man of war and brings judgement of natural disasters etc. His purpose in these scriptures have to do with judgement.
And WHO visits iniquity into people....according to scripture?2. In the context of God creating evil referring to creating sin is not true.
Because God deals with freewill agents who must have to make a freewill choice is why Lucifer chose to sin. He was perfect until iniquity was found in him. Ezekiel 28:15.
Freewill isn't defensible in scripture. It's another orthodox belief with lots of debate from those understanding "predestination".Just because evil was a possibility does not mean that God actually created evil or sin itself as he cannot sin or be blamed for sin. This type of argument is an indirect way to blame God for sin and that we do not have freewill choice and is not found in the contexts of scripture. Jerry Kelso
Even Plato in discussing whether everything that is can be attributed to a force could only admit that if it was so, that force could not be evil - it had to be benevolent. So however else one wants to render Scripture, the idea that one can say God is All Good and also "creates" evil is obviously contrary to logic/reason according to even pagans. To say otherwise requires one to either abandon the notion that God is Good or explain how one is a smarter philosopher than Plato in being able to present how Good could be said to act against itself in creating that which is not Good.You said calamities scripture says evil. Pretty cut and dried IMO.
And you might want to have a talk with Job when you get there and tell him loosing everything he had to Satan was really just missing a good rain.
Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive EVIL? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
BTW you do know everything done to Job came from Satan...right?
And WHO visits iniquity into people....according to scripture?
Freewill isn't defensible in scripture. It's another orthodox belief with lots of debate from those understanding "predestination".
My opinion based on scripture;
Romans 11:32 For God has consigned/sugkleio all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.
GAL 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded/sugkleio all under sin,
4788 sugkleio {soong-kli'-o}:from 4862 and 2808
(1) to shut up together, enclose
(1.a) of a shoal of fishes in a net
I never suggested our view is perfect.It is not so cut and dry. Yahweh God is perfect, with creation from God reflecting just that, but we fallen creatures have such a bad perspective of that. We won't tend to see all God's goodness being all good. We would then favor some of it as good and the rest that there must be we see as evil. This from our fallenness is with our rebellion against God. In the same way our ancestors Adam and Eve did not trust God when they were told there was something preferable for them. This is not faith in God. Yahweh God's goodness consists of such characteristics without limit along with having all knowledge as love, compassion, grace, mercy, and perfect righteousness with God's own perfect standards. None of us who are fallen creatures meet such standards. Though such that to us appear innocent suffer in this world with curse from our rebellion of sin, we are responsible and what God sees which is true is that none from among humanity, which is fallen with sin, is fully innocent. We see calamities come that we see as evil, but we are subject to such in this fallen condition in this world. The only way of deliverance is through redemption with our repentence, that God made available to all among humanity, through Christ, with our faith. An eternity of bliss in relationship with God, that is available in Christ, is available with that and awaits those coming to it, with a restored world that creation groans for in hope.
I never suggested our view is perfect.
Am suggesting it is impossible to imagine a Perfect Good and in the same breath suggest a portion of evil (less good make more sense to me) is measurable or expected as part of something imagined to be a Perfect Good. To me that makes no sense. Neither would it make sense to say a Perfect Being, with Perfect Will, Who is Good, is going to set His Will against Himself - which is required if one imagines God creates evil (the relative absence of Good).
exactly - I misunderstood the first post.My post was more as a response to Hillsage. Evil seen in creation from Yahweh is indeed just from our perspective which is flawed with our fallenness. Evil which is not of the perfection of God certainly cannot come from God.
[/QUOTE]You said calamities scripture says evil. Pretty cut and dried IMO.
And you might want to have a talk with Job when you get there and tell him loosing everything he had to Satan was really just missing a good rain.
Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive EVIL? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
BTW you do know everything done to Job came from Satan...right?
And WHO visits iniquity into people....according to scripture?
Freewill isn't defensible in scripture. It's another orthodox belief with lots of debate from those understanding "predestination".
My opinion based on scripture;
Romans 11:32 For God has consigned/sugkleio all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.
GAL 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded/sugkleio all under sin,
4788 sugkleio {soong-kli'-o}:from 4862 and 2808
(1) to shut up together, enclose
(1.a) of a shoal of fishes in a net
[/QUOTE]You said calamities scripture says evil. Pretty cut and dried IMO.
And you might want to have a talk with Job when you get there and tell him loosing everything he had to Satan was really just missing a good rain.
Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive EVIL? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
BTW you do know everything done to Job came from Satan...right?
And WHO visits iniquity into people....according to scripture?
Freewill isn't defensible in scripture. It's another orthodox belief with lots of debate from those understanding "predestination".
My opinion based on scripture;
Romans 11:32 For God has consigned/sugkleio all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.
GAL 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded/sugkleio all under sin,
4788 sugkleio {soong-kli'-o}:from 4862 and 2808
(1) to shut up together, enclose
(1.a) of a shoal of fishes in a net
6. Freewill choice is a fact and God will not violate that right that comes from dealing with freewill people.
Actually the belief is not that we are born sinners, as in already guilty of some sin, but we are born with a fallen nature. And no, that is not the same thing. We are born, unlike Jesus (or Mary), being inclined to sin. Without God's help (Grace) we cannot help doing what we know we should not do. As Saint Paul describes it, we are at war with our self internally our entire life here. Unlike the suggestion made here in UR world that God creates evil, the orthodox view holds Adam and Eve were not created already having that internal struggle. It is only because of Adam's first sin that we are all born this way. Unlike our individual personal sins which are a free choice of our will, we are not to blame for the "Original sin" which causes the "stain" on our nature (fallen) and makes us inclined to sin from our birth.Did you have a choice to be born into this world a sinner?
Since it is plain through scripture that All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God.
And since it is also plain through scripture that we were made subject to vanity "not willingly"....
And since it is also plain that it was by one man that sin entered this world and death by sin passed upon us all.
none of these things was our choice.
As in Adam All die, is that a choice? In Christ All shall be made Alive is that a choice?
When God was in Christ Reconciling the world unto Himself.....Where were you in your choices?
Am Catholic, so I had to throw that in there. And no, as Catholics, we are not bound to only what is definitive/detailed in Scripture, however the angels greeting of Mary is at least supportive of the teaching, which the early Church supported as well and we accept it as a teaching of the Apostles. Most notably this (and most of what we know about Her) would come from Saint John who is said, of all the Apostles, to have spent the most time with Mary until Her death.I don't know any scriptures definitely saying Mary was without a sin nature, rather there was her speaking of her need for her Redeemer, but we humans all who are born are certainly not guilty of sin already, but have the sin nature that has us needing the redemption Christ came to give us. When we do sin we need to come to repentance for that.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?