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“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I Yehovah do all these things” — Isaiah 45:7 (KJV with Hebrew name restored)
It's amazing how the Scriptures can answer our questions, don't you think?
Shalom,
David
Don't we ALL make the same claim though? And don't ALL churches 'claim' to believe the bible, and yet we have 666 different denominations who don't agree with each other based upon 'the bible'. There is a religious spirit promoting 'the false' in all '-isms', whether they be Hindu-ism, Budda-ism or denominational-ism.
Let me leave you with a quote from Martin Luther in a letter to Hansen Von Rechenberg in 1522: "God forbid that I should limit the time of acquiring faith to the present life. In the depth of the Divine mercy there may be opportunity to win it in the future."
The truth here is that neither of us really knows what happens after death because we're both still alive. Let's at least agree to diligently seek the Lord's calling and hope to glorify Him in all we do.
God bless!
how can the eternal "continuation" of a process means as a qualifier that a process may end in one particular case, but a different process having the same qualifier never ends?
There is no sense in which one can claim a process can be described a "continuing" yet mean for any particular part going through the process there is always an end point for that part. That is not the description of a "continuing" process. So the fact we have changed word usage to describe our two possible eternal fates does not "solve" your problem. You are still claiming we (or Jesus) can use the same qualifier to describe a "process" and have that qualifier mean opposing things. Changing the word did not help, it still makes no sense at all.
I don't think he would agree. In his mind God is incapable of having someone in a "place" eternally where the torment experience is directly proportional to unaccounted evil committed in this life.
You cannot answer a question about your premise by simply restating the premise a different way. It does not matter that one views and labels differently God's treatment of man in the final eternal differences between only two possible fates. And talk of permanence is irrelevant as both our views require a permanence in the next life. And as I/we were not talking about a permanence of any "salvation" process going on in this life, our differences there should not enter into the discussion about what happens in the next. In the view of many Christians we are never clean enough to enter Heaven (fully in His Presence) during this life. The whole incomplete thought of Purgatory is an expression of the need for everyone Heaven bound needing a rinse before continuing onward and upward. A few people are demonstrated in the Bible as coming so close they walked straight in. But even Moses is depicted as needing to "remove his filth" before treading on "Holy Ground".Because Life and Death to God, is different than what most men think they are.
When God destroys or puts to death the wickedness in a man, the "Results" of that "process" that it took to accomplish it, is "Permanent", which in turn brings Life which is also "Permanent".
This is what is meant by .....I kill and make alive Deut. 32:39
But the "process" that it takes to accomplish this death in a person is limited to an age or time.
When someone takes a shower they are "continuing" to wash as long as it takes to be clean, but once they are, the "process" of bathing stops, but the "Results" is a clean body. And even this example fails to compare to The Fire that cleanses us.
When a person washes to get clean, eventually we have to repeat the process, but when God does something it is Permanent.
Under Law a person had to continually wash and offer sacrifices because they could never get rid of their sin conscientiousness, but Christ did it once for all. Heb.10:-
If everything was 'created perfect' then why did God say;God created everything and gave everything free will, and everything was perfect for a while until lucifer plotted and sinned against God out of pride and was kicked out of heaven. Then God made humans and everything was perfect and they were good until they disobeyed him. So it is our own free will to do wrong that brings evil into the world, evil is simply separation from God, and God gives us the right to do that, if he didn't we would be slaves.
When I first read this post, I thought to myself 'O boy, this answer ought to be 'good' and, sadly, it was. Isn't it amazing what man can justify when checking our ability to 'judge what is right', at the door.Please explain to me how you think that the life span of a man is what you call "directly proportional" to eternal torment.
An average life is what, probably 75 maybe, but yet you call it justice for someone to be punished for all eternity for sin they could only have committed for a matter of 70 yrs. That makes no sense.
If everything was 'created perfect' then why did God say;
GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
So did God goof when he made Adam? Or do we possibly goof by saying everything was created perfect?
If we can imagine holding someone's toe close enough to a candle to get his attention for the rest of his life compared to holding the same candle a little closer toe of another person - then we have demonstrated the same thought - if the burning thought bothers anyone then just consider it as representing the source of whatever means used to "torment" those two people. If we considered that torment punishment, then we have imagined the same exact means of punishment that could be applied for the exact same period as far as a lifetime is concerned but we imagined it with varying degree of torment simply by imagining one person had the candle closer to their skin. If we imagined both persons living the exact same amount of time after the candles are lit, then they are indeed both receiving the same punishment and only the degree varies. There is no reason to think the same thought could not apply to eternity. All we would be doing is moving the location of the two physical bodies that have already in this world experienced the same punishment unequally in a temporal realm and moved them to another eternal realm.Please explain to me how you think that the life span of a man is what you call "directly proportional" to eternal torment.
An average life is what, probably 75 maybe, but yet you call it justice for someone to be punished for all eternity for sin they could only have committed for a matter of 70 yrs. That makes no sense.
Rich treasures indeed coming from some one unable to answer how it is they believe Good can do evil yet remain Good.If everything was 'created perfect' then why did God say;
GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
So did God goof when he made Adam? Or do we possibly goof by saying everything was created perfect?
So if there is to be Justice for the injustice which occurs now in our reality and we know people die without having experiencing Justice for what they did (or failed to do), then what occurs in the next life must rectify that imbalance and not a bit more. Otherwise injustice would never end either in this life or the next. We do not have to imagine punishment ending to imagine otherwise some people are getting more than they should - it would be a matter of degree. Levels of Hell if you will, just as we can conceive (and there Justly should be) levels of Heaven.
God created everything and gave everything free will, and everything was perfect for a while until lucifer plotted and sinned against God out of pride and was kicked out of heaven. Then God made humans and everything was perfect and they were good until they disobeyed him. So it is our own free will to do wrong that brings evil into the world, evil is simply separation from God, and God gives us the right to do that, if he didn't we would be slaves.
Rich treasures indeed coming from some one unable to answer how it is they believe Good can do evil yet remain Good.
I do think of the cost actually. And that cost is the only way we escape the condemnation of our sins. The Power of the Love He has for us and the Grace that it provides is the only way we can become and remain Holy. Sinning, any sinning is a rejection of that Grace. We cannot claim to have something and reject it too. Which sort of what you and Jesus expressed about a house divided. Think about it. A house that is filthy that is simply covered with a clean coat of pain may look nice to us but is still going to stink because it remains filthy. We do not remain filthy in a proper Baptism. We do not remain filthy in a proper Reconciliation. So there would be nothing in those instances for God to "overlook". We can however get dirty again and He will forgive us just as He is shown having forgiven Saint Peter after having done the very thing He said would get Peter denied before God (IOW set to Hell).This is the most twisted thinking I've ever run across.
What you don't seem to understand Dr. is That Jesus became the Judgement of God and condemned Sin in the flesh for all mankind. So when you speak of Justice then you'd better speak of the price Jesus paid on that cross.
If God sees any sin today, then He would have to overlook the Sacrifice of His Son, and I'm sorry but that is not possible.
But according to what you just said here in this statement only proves the scriptures to be truth.
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
Let me ask you something Dr. can you forgive Hitler, Nero, Manson? What if your own child was to commit murder and sentenced to prison, could you forgive them? Or would you be satisfied with knowing that they would spend an eternity in tormenting fire? Would that be sufficient punishment?
Am hearing what you say and rejecting it. I know this because I can repeat it back to you in my own words, even though typically a lot of you want to reject the reality of what you say. Most of you cannot even fully explain why you believe what you do or why much of it when expanded to our whole reality can make any sense at all. So it is not a matter of me just not likely your answers and so rejecting them. So the position is really that saying these things sounds better to me than saying something else. Which is nice, but does not help in these discussion.Yes he has, and so have many others, you shouldn't blame us that you cannot hear or receive what we say.
You just don't like the answers that are given. And just because you don't understand how a Good God could create evil, doesn't mean that He can't either. Because if you really wanted to know how, all you would have to do is ask Him in faith and He would show you.
Can you state my view please.
LOL, thought so. No, I know you can attempt it but I have my doubts you can get it right. Which is sort of required if you are going to make attacks on it that are not charges at ugly old windmill.Yes I can,....
Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
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