Did God create evil?

Cassiopeia · Jun 7, 2005

On another thread it was mentioned that Wiccans believe that God created good AND evil. Is that what Wiccans really believe? I have had opposing opinions on this subject.

Also, all other faiths, does your religion teach this principle?

Thanks for your participation.

*Please note* PLEASE, I beg you, for the sake of my sanity, do NOT turn this into a flame fest or question a person's integrity or their christianity. I do not want this thread to be derailed PLEASE.

Casi (peace be with you all)

gaijin178 · Jun 7, 2005

Hi Casi,

I think from the Christian point of view, it would be silly to not say that God created evil as well. I mean, God created everything right? So why not evil? It exists in the world right? I fear that too many Christians blame Satan for evil when didn't God also create Lucifer? I know, it got messed up and he didn't mean for Adam and Eve to do the things that he did and for Lucifer to be a fallen angle and everything, but wouldn't God, the creator know that was going to happen?

From my point of view or my understanding or lack thereof of my tradition, there is no need to really concentrate on a creator god. So this god could have created evil and good, or neither or one of them and not the other. But the truth of the matter is, I don't really care. I see so many people of all different traditions cause evil so where should the blame really go? I don't like to focus on these kinds of things so I just try to focus on myself. Not in a selfish way per say, but in a way that is constantly keeping me in check. Do I make mistakes? Sure, but I don't blame it on anyone but myself. I don't know if that makes sense but there it is.

Oxy2Hydr0 · Jun 7, 2005

Isaiah 45:6-8

6That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

8Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

I wanted to catch this before someone started saying things that are unbiblical.

Now in the islamic perspective, God creates whatever it may be for a good purpose. He created Iblis the outcasted devil for a good purpose when he knew from the begining what he would or would not do. It is God that gave him the abilities to be evil or good.

Cassiopeia · Jun 8, 2005

gaijin178 said:
Hi Casi,

I think from the Christian point of view, it would be silly to not say that God created evil as well. I mean, God created everything right? So why not evil? It exists in the world right? I fear that too many Christians blame Satan for evil when didn't God also create Lucifer? I know, it got messed up and he didn't mean for Adam and Eve to do the things that he did and for Lucifer to be a fallen angle and everything, but wouldn't God, the creator know that was going to happen?

From my point of view or my understanding or lack thereof of my tradition, there is no need to really concentrate on a creator god. So this god could have created evil and good, or neither or one of them and not the other. But the truth of the matter is, I don't really care. I see so many people of all different traditions cause evil so where should the blame really go? I don't like to focus on these kinds of things so I just try to focus on myself. Not in a selfish way per say, but in a way that is constantly keeping me in check. Do I make mistakes? Sure, but I don't blame it on anyone but myself. I don't know if that makes sense but there it is.

From my point of view God is not responsible for what we do or the choices we make including Satan or Lucifer as some call him. I guess then we can wonder where evil came from. That is another question we could explore.

I think it is GREAT that you are accountable for your own mistakes. Do you know how rare that is today in a world where people want to shift the blame and get off scott free? Good for you. I admire that in a person.

Peace

Casi (who knows she is also to blame for many things and is doing her best...a work in progress

Cassiopeia · Jun 8, 2005

Oxy2Hydr0 said:
I wanted to catch this before someone started saying things that are unbiblical.

Now in the islamic perspective, God creates whatever it may be for a good purpose. He created Iblis the outcasted devil for a good purpose when he knew from the begining what he would or would not do. It is God that gave him the abilities to be evil or good.

Very interesting. So in your mind, did God create evil because we need it? What good purpose can come from evil? I am interested in knowing what you believe. It reminds me of Mormonism that says,

"There must be opposite in all things, otherwise we could not know good from evil."

Is this the same thinking?

Thanks for your thoughtful reply,

Casi (excited to hear more)

sefroth77 · Jun 8, 2005

Casiopeia said:
On another thread it was mentioned that Wiccans believe that God created good AND evil. Is that what Wiccans really believe? I have had opposing opinions on this subject.

Also, all other faiths, does your religion teach this principle?

Thanks for your participation.

*Please note* PLEASE, I beg you, for the sake of my sanity, do NOT turn this into a flame fest or question a person's integrity or their christianity. I do not want this thread to be derailed PLEASE.

Casi (peace be with you all)

Ok in the Ancient Vedic Wisdom. What we are living in, is the Material Universe. In this Material Universe there exist Higher Beings like Demi-Gods and Demons. They have their own planets beyond our galaxies.Between Bhuvarloka and Bhurloka(earth) is antariksa, an interplanetary space where the Sun is situated. Here live beings like Raksasas, Yaksas, Pisacas and ghosts. They often descend on earth and are generally inimical to humans. Usuallly they will be born later as humans.

So who creates all these beings ? Well its Lord Brahma the Highest being in our Material Universe. Brahma is a Demi-God who also have thoughts like us, So in his long Life-Span he sometimes do things which is not so Good. Its him who creates demons and Ghosts. These demons have evil thinking(not all) and is always fighting the demi-gods for power in this Material Universe.

So lets go down to the Human-Level. Since the soul is entangled in this Material Universe it has to face good or evil. This Good or evil is created by other Ordinary Souls. Even Lord Brahma has a entangled Soul. So the cause of all these is Us.

So Why God dosen't get's involve ?

As i said theres two type of atmosphere the spritual and the material. The spritual platform has 3/4 of God's entire creation while the balance material platform has 1/4 creation and this is where our universes is. This 1/4 is darkness. These is where Good/Evil, repeated birth,death and diease exist. So the ordinary Soul is actually a fallen being from the Real World which is in the Spritual Atmosphere. Why we are fallen is because we want to enjoy material things, So Krishna(God) Gives us the free-will to enjoy material benefits. Since its Free-will, Krishna(God) would never interfere in our personal enjoyment. So because of this Personal Enjoyment of each and every soul, many Evils and goodness are cause.

So when Lord Brahma creates demons, Krishna(God) didn't interfere because Brahma wants to enjoy his creations. Who are these demons ? They are nothing but people/beings who worship these beings in other universes. Note: There are millions of other universes we are in, only one of them. Other evils done by Humans or to a certain extent some Demi-Gods are done by themselves. The Ordinary Soul which is fallen from the real world is the main cause for all evil and goodness in our material universe.

Conclusion:

1.Did God create Evil : No
2.Who created Evil : Us(we have ourselves to blame)
3.Who created Goodness : Also Us(People like Mother Terasa,Gandhi,Luther King)

4.What will God do? : He can only teach us in this material universe, He can only say whats Good and whats Bad, its up to us to heed his advice.

At the end of the Bhagavad Gita After saying all the reveal truths to the warrior Arjuna, Lord Krishna said : "This is my point of view, now you can go on as you wish".

I owed a "magnificent day to the reading of the Bhagavat-Gita" and thatEngland could not produce such a book as the Gita. I find Indian books "excellent gymnastic for the mind as showing treatment - imagination, volatility etc."
Ralph Waldo Emerson

Alecto · Jun 8, 2005

In my religious view, we create evil. There is no perminant force of evil causing mischief through the world, there is only us. There are negative forces and negativity, but those exist in opposition to positive forces, as it must be to maintain balance.

Cassiopeia · Jun 8, 2005

sefroth77 said:
Ok in the Ancient Vedic Wisdom. What we are living in, is the Material Universe. In this Material Universe there exist Higher Beings like Demi-Gods and Demons. They have their own planets beyond our galaxies.Between Bhuvarloka and Bhurloka(earth) is antariksa, an interplanetary space where the Sun is situated. Here live beings like Raksasas, Yaksas, Pisacas and ghosts. They often descend on earth and are generally inimical to humans. Usuallly they will be born later as humans.

So who creates all these beings ? Well its Lord Brahma the Highest being in our Material Universe. Brahma is a Demi-God who also have thoughts like us, So in his long Life-Span he sometimes do things which is not so Good. Its him who creates demons and Ghosts. These demons have evil thinking(not all) and is always fighting the demi-gods for power in this Material Universe.

So lets go down to the Human-Level. Since the soul is entangled in this Material Universe it has to face good or evil. This Good or evil is created by other Ordinary Souls. Even Lord Brahma has a entangled Soul. So the cause of all these is Us.

So Why God dosen't get's involve ?

As i said theres two type of atmosphere the spritual and the material. The spritual platform has 3/4 of God's entire creation while the balance material platform has 1/4 creation and this is where our universes is. This 1/4 is darkness. These is where Good/Evil, repeated birth,death and diease exist. So the ordinary Soul is actually a fallen being from the Real World which is in the Spritual Atmosphere. Why we are fallen is because we want to enjoy material things, So Krishna(God) Gives us the free-will to enjoy material benefits. Since its Free-will, Krishna(God) would never interfere in our personal enjoyment. So because of this Personal Enjoyment of each and every soul, many Evils and goodness are cause.

So when Lord Brahma creates demons, Krishna(God) didn't interfere because Brahma wants to enjoy his creations. Who are these demons ? They are nothing but people/beings who worship these beings in other universes. Note: There are millions of other universes we are in, only one of them. Other evils done by Humans or to a certain extent some Demi-Gods are done by themselves. The Ordinary Soul which is fallen from the real world is the main cause for all evil and goodness in our material universe.

Conclusion:

1.Did God create Evil : No
2.Who created Evil : Us(we have ourselves to blame)
3.Who created Goodness : Also Us(People like Mother Terasa,Gandhi,Luther King)

4.What will God do? : He can only teach us in this material universe, He can only say whats Good and whats Bad, its up to us to heed his advice.

At the end of the Bhagavad Gita After saying all the reveal truths to the warrior Arjuna, Lord Krishna said : "This is my point of view, now you can go on as you wish".

I hope I understood that interesting and detailed post. I haven't read anything like this religion. Is there a name for it?

Casi

sefroth77 · Jun 8, 2005

Casiopeia said:
I hope I understood that interesting and detailed post. I haven't read anything like this religion. Is there a name for it?

Casi

Its Sanatana Dharma or to make you understand, This is Hindusim.

I owed a "magnificent day to the reading of the Bhagavat-Gita" and that England could not produce such a book as the Gita. I find Indian books "excellent gymnastic for the mind as showing treatment - imagination, volatility etc."
Ralph Waldo Emerson

Cassiopeia · Jun 8, 2005

sefroth77 said:
Its Sanatana Dharma or to make you understand, This is Hindusim.

I owed a "magnificent day to the reading of the Bhagavat-Gita" and that England could not produce such a book as the Gita. I find Indian books "excellent gymnastic for the mind as showing treatment - imagination, volatility etc."
Ralph Waldo Emerson

Ahhh yes...okay...I thought maybe but I wasn't sure.

Bevlina · Jun 8, 2005

Evil and sins are not "things" in and of themselves. They do not exist autonomously. Rather, they are the absence of the perfect which God did make. This becomes complicated, so let me give you a couple of examples. We have the ability to create a vacuum of space. We do this not by making something out of materials, but by removing all the air and particles out of that space. The void that remains is what we choose to label a vacuum. It isnt a thing in itself, but it is a term we use to state that everything else is gone. Likewise we use the term cold to describe a lower temperature.
God did not create evil - he allows evil.
Am I making sense?

Cassiopeia · Jun 8, 2005

Bevlina said:
Evil and sins are not "things" in and of themselves. They do not exist autonomously. Rather, they are the absence of the perfect which God did make. This becomes complicated, so let me give you a couple of examples. We have the ability to create a vacuum of space. We do this not by making something out of materials, but by removing all the air and particles out of that space. The void that remains is what we choose to label a vacuum. It isnt a thing in itself, but it is a term we use to state that everything else is gone. Likewise we use the term cold to describe a lower temperature.
God did not create evil - he allows evil.
Am I making sense?

Yes you are making sense my only question then is...where did evil come from or is it merely the absense of good?

Bevlina · Jun 8, 2005

I made sense?!? Rofl!! Thought that was impossible. Evil began with pride insofar as I know. When Lucifer wanted to take God's throne. It all really began in the Bible when the "Sons of God" saw the daughters of men were fair and had children to them. Biblically, that was the beginning of evil on this earth. Those evil ones were on Lucifer's side and according to the Book of Enoch, they are the ones who taugh the earth about war, how to make weaponry, jewellery, makeup etc;
There was the Flood to wipe them out, but I think (if memory serves me right) some of their blood was in one of Noah's son's. And, it continued on the earth through that line.

Cassiopeia · Jun 8, 2005

Bevlina said:
I made sense?!? Rofl!! Thought that was impossible. Evil began with pride insofar as I know. When Lucifer wanted to take God's throne. It all really began in the Bible when the "Sons of God" saw the daughters of men were fair and had children to them. Biblically, that was the beginning of evil on this earth. Those evil ones were on Lucifer's side and according to the Book of Enoch, they are the ones who taugh the earth about war, how to make weaponry, jewellery, makeup etc;
There was the Flood to wipe them out, but I think (if memory serves me right) some of their blood was in one of Noah's son's. And, it continued on the earth through that line.

Who are the "Sons of God"? Is this referring to man or to the angels who followed Lucifer?

Bevlina · Jun 8, 2005

They were some of the Fallen Angels who followed Lucifer Casi. Lucifer was a created being the same as his confederates. Gahhhhhh ... where's my Bible!
Got it. Genesis 6.2

Genesis 6

6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

From thereon, you will see that there was evil on the earth.

Cassiopeia · Jun 8, 2005

Bevlina said:
They were some of the Fallen Angels who followed Lucifer Casi. Lucifer was a created being the same as his confederates. Gahhhhhh ... where's my Bible!
Got it. Genesis 6.2

Genesis 6

6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

From thereon, you will see that there was evil on the earth.

Okay so help me here...they had physical bodies? these fallen ones? I didn't think that the angels who followed him had bodies.

HumbleSiPilot77 · Jun 8, 2005

Bevlina said:
They were some of the Fallen Angels who followed Lucifer Casi. Lucifer was a created being the same as his confederates. Gahhhhhh ... where's my Bible!
Got it. Genesis 6.2

Genesis 6

6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

From thereon, you will see that there was evil on the earth.

Please read the jinni thread, those are not fallen angels. there is a deep exegesis of those verses derived from the ENTIRE BIBLICAL HISTORY.

HumbleSiPilot77 · Jun 8, 2005

Oxy2Hydr0 said:
I wanted to catch this before someone started saying things that are unbiblical.

Now in the islamic perspective, God creates whatever it may be for a good purpose. He created Iblis the outcasted devil for a good purpose when he knew from the begining what he would or would not do. It is God that gave him the abilities to be evil or good.

Oh how I know my man as the back of my hand, he will bring controversial verses...

As with many other words, the term evil can have more than one meaning, depending upon the manner in which it is used. The Hebrew word for evil is ra, which derives from a root meaning to spoil or to break in pieces.

1. Obviously, the term evil may be used with reference to sinful activities. Ezekiel rebuked Israel for her worship of idols (20:39), which rebellion was characterized as evil (vv. 43-44). Jesus once spoke of evil thoughts that produce a variety of ungodly actions, e.g., fornication, theft, murder, etc. (Mk. 7:21-23).

2. On the other hand, evil may refer to a disaster of some sort. In discussing the punishment that would be visited upon Israel for her wickedness, Isaiah declared:

For you have trusted in your wickedness; you have said, No one sees me; [but] your wisdom and your knowledge, it has perverted you, and you have said in your heart, I am, and there is no one else besides me. Therefore shall evil come upon you; you will not know the dawning thereof: and mischief shall fall upon you; you will not be able to put it away: and desolation shall come upon you suddenly, of which you know not. (Isa. 47:10-11; emp. supplied).

Observe the parallelism in this text. The evil of verse 11a becomes the mischief and the desolation in the latter portion of the passage. The evil of which the prophet spoke, actually was the impending Babylonian captivity (see also Jer. 18:8).

Similarly, when the prophet Amos warned the northern kingdom of Israel of its eventual doom, he referred to that time of temporal judgment as the evil day, which, of course, ultimately was the Assyrian invasion (722/21 B.C.).

3. Sometimes evil can simply refer to physical infirmity. Solomon admonished those still in their youth to remember the Creator in the vigor of those early times of energy, because eventually the evil days come and the years take their physical toll (Eccl. 12:1). Some of those bodily ailments are then chronicled in the balance of the chapter (see vv. 3-7).

From the divine view point, therefore, such things as national judgments and physical degeneration are characterized as evil because all such hurtful human experiences ultimately are the result of humanitys foolish choices to engage in evil (rebellion) against the Maker of men. Natural evils are the result of moral evil not in every individual situation (consider, for instance, the case of the patriarch Job, and that of Christ as well) but in a general, ultimate, cause-and-effect sense (cf. Rom. 5:12).

The fact that ra is contrasted to shalom, the Hebrew word for peace, helps to give parameters to the meaning of ra. Shalom, again, is a rich word with broad meaning. Depending on the context, shalom can be translated "peace," "well-being," "welfare," "prosperity," "safe," "health," and "peaceable." in Isaiah 45:7 makes it evident that different translators interpreted the context of Isaiah 45 in different ways. Five different English translations are compared below.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things (KJV).

I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things (NKJV).

I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things (NIV).

The One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these (NASB).

I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe, I am the Lord, who does all these things (RSV).

The Hebrew term ra has a broad spectrum of meanings. It can mean "wickedness," "mischief," "bad," "trouble," "hurt," "sore," "affliction," "ill," "adversity," "harm," "grievous," and "sad." Thus, as with the interpretation of any word, it is the immediate context that dictates the exact nuance of the word to be translated into English.

The fact that ra is contrasted to shalom, the Hebrew word for peace, helps to give parameters to the meaning of ra. Shalom, again, is a rich word with broad meaning. Depending on the context, shalom can be translated "peace," "well-being," "welfare," "prosperity," "safe," "health," and "peaceable."

The context of Isaiah 45:7 is a profound declaration of Gods total sovereignty over the affairs of men. Gods stunning revelation that Cyrus, the totalitarian ruler of Persia, was being chosen by Him to be "His anointed" ( Isaiah 45:1 ), the deliverer of the nation of Israel, was shocking to Isaiahs readers. This is especially true given Gods clear denunciation of idolatry in the immediately preceding context ( Isaiah 44:6-23 ). The irony of this passage is that God reveals how He intends to use a pagan, idol-worshiping dictator like Cyrus to return His people Israel to the land from which they had been deposed by the Babylonian despot, Nebuchadnezzar.

In summing up the gamut of His awesome character and unpredictable ways (see also Isaiah 55:8-9 ), God declares:

I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged Me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things (Isaiah 45:5-7 NIV).

This is the signature exclamation of the only sovereign potentate of the universe: "I did this!" From the beginning to the end, from light to darkness, from prosperity to disaster, all are the work of His hands. God uses even the most wicked and evil exploits of this world to bring about His glory and divine purposes. That is what is so awesome about God. Only He can take the most wicked, evil, and self-serving intentions and make good come out of them (see also Romans 8:28 ).

Does God create evil? Certainly not. If He was the author of evil, then He certainly would not be a good God that is worthy of worship and praise, much less trusted to have our well-being in mind. The idea of a good God creating His own enemy and the object of His wrath seems inconceivable. It would be inconsistent for a good God to mastermind the idea of evil, will it into existence, and still be considered a good God.

Rather, God created man in His image with the freedom to choose. With this freedom came the opportunity to rebel against Him. Man did rebel ( Genesis 3 ), and the rest is history. The annals of human history chronicle how God uses everything even the chaos of this world to bring about His glory and purposes. Those purposes include our growth in becoming more Christlike.

Whats the point of Isaiah 45:7? God reveals His almighty and awesome character to us so we can relax with the confidence that comes from knowing, even in the most dark, desperate, and discouraging times in our lives, God is up to something good for us all the time.

HumbleSiPilot77 · Jun 8, 2005

Oh one more respectful request, before using Biblical Scripture, you need to tell us how you seperate it from the corrupted ones, if you can not answer this question, do not use Biblical Scripture or cease to call it corrupted. I don't believe in Islamic scripture and I hardly ever use it, if I do, it is to show muslim acting contrary to what they are commanded.

vipertaja · Jun 8, 2005

Casiopeia said:
What good purpose can come from evil?

My humble opinion is that something living that is supposedly 0% evil and still concious would likely be insane.

Then again I don't really think there is such a thing as "sane" as it is, but I mean as in worse than that.

Evil being a human concept of course.

Did God create evil?

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