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Did God create everything?

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I was told to post here - so here I go.

Did God create sin? - No
Did God create imperfect humans to damn to hell? - No
Did God create Himself? - No

Gen 2:7 - God created Adam's body, then breathed life into it - not created life, but breathed it in - or placed it in depending on what translation you use.

The origin of evil - seems to be a problem area for those who are not Christian, and for those who are Christian.

My answer? Not a popular one - is that God did not create everything - that part of us was not created by Him - but that He is selflessly trying to mold, to refine us out of the goodness of His heart. He will not take away our free agency, but will give us ample opportunity and resources to change if we choose to. It is the only way I can justify a loving God.

comments? Did God create everything? Yes or no?
 

shernren

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The Bible is clear that God made everything.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
(John 1:1-3 NIV)

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
(Colossians 1:15-17 NIV)


He also says,
"In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
(Hebrews 1:10-11 NIV)

By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
(Hebrews 11:3 NIV)

We do not need to hold to a literal interpretation of Genesis 1-11 to affirm the great doctrine that in God nothing less than the whole universe was born, has being, and will find its destiny.
 
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gluadys

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I was told to post here - so here I go.

Did God create sin? - No
Did God create imperfect humans to damn to hell? - No
Did God create Himself? - No

Gen 2:7 - God created Adam's body, then breathed life into it - not created life, but breathed it in - or placed it in depending on what translation you use.

The origin of evil - seems to be a problem area for those who are not Christian, and for those who are Christian.

My answer? Not a popular one - is that God did not create everything - that part of us was not created by Him - but that He is selflessly trying to mold, to refine us out of the goodness of His heart. He will not take away our free agency, but will give us ample opportunity and resources to change if we choose to. It is the only way I can justify a loving God.

comments? Did God create everything? Yes or no?

Yes, God created everything other than himself. God is the only uncreated Being, since God is Being itself and God's being is eternal. Nothing else exists apart from God.

You justify the idea that God did not create everything as a way to deal with the problem of evil and hold to belief in a loving God.

But the solution is worse than the original problem. For if evil is something that exists without creation, then it is also an eternal Being and can never be overcome. When good and evil are both eternal, there is no hope for the abolition of evil.

Better, IMO, to follow the thinking of C.S. Lewis here. Evil is not a thing in itself. It has no being in itself. It is a defect of being. As darkness has no being in itself but is the absence of light, evil is not a thing in itself, but the absence of love and goodness. Evil cannot exist apart from goodness, for it needs what is good to sustain it. After all, every temptation to evil depends on convincing us that we will get some good from it.


Gen 2:7 - God created Adam's body, then breathed life into it - not created life, but breathed it in - or placed it in depending on what translation you use.

My answer? Not a popular one - is that God did not create everything - that part of us was not created by Him - but that He is selflessly trying to mold, to refine us out of the goodness of His heart.

I want to comment on this interpretation in particular. It is a feature of much dualist thinking. Note how you are identifying the "life" the "breath" with God. But then, what of the body? Is it then something less that the breath/spirit? Is the body, in particular, the source of human evil, with the uncreated spirit within exempt from sin?

Perhaps you did not mean to imply this, but it is so common in dualistic thinking that I believe one must always be alert to this danger of linking what is material (like the body) more closely to imperfection than the spiritual.

And, historically, where this link is made, we see the development of hierarchical societies in which those seen as close to the earth (peasants, indigenous people, labourers, artisans and, above all, women) are subordinated to those who do not work with their hands, or even do not work at all, but live at leisure from the toil of their "inferiors".

We need to remember that "humus" and "humility" come from the same root and the humble ones of the earth are an especial care of God who is their protector.

Scripture, in fact, tells us that the greater sins are those of the spirit--those that Jesus identifies as coming from the heart. It is the spirit that lifts itself up in pride, envy and anger and expresses itself in slander, false witness, theft and murder. The body and its needs can be a source of temptation, but body and spirit alike are prone to sin and one is not more pure or close to God than the other. So it makes no sense to think of differentiating one as "not created".


He will not take away our free agency, but will give us ample opportunity and resources to change if we choose to.

Finally, a special comment on this phrase. I do not think God merely gives us "opportunity and resources to change if we choose to." What God does is change us. God does not just mark a way for the lost sheep to return if it chooses to. God goes out, finds the lost sheep and brings it back on his shoulder.

I once recall hearing a Jewish commentator say that this was the one respect in which Christianity differed from Judaism. Judaism (and most other religions) tell us that God welcomes us when we turn to God. (The Qur'an IIRC says that for each step we take toward God, God takes two toward us.) But the first step is always initiated by the person who seeks God. Only Christianity has proclaimed that God takes the first step of seeking out the sinner, even before the sinner repents. That is why the writer of Revelation speaks of Christ as "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

I think you mean well when you try to explain things so that God is seen as loving in spite of the evil in the world. But (as C.S. Lewis says in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe), there is magic and there is deeper magic in the love of God. The deeper magic is that God loves so much that he created the world and us in it knowing that evil would come of it, but knowing that evil will be overcome by his love.
 
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"nothing was made that has been made. "

I agree - if it was "made" it was made by Him.
however...
Some things were not made.

Some things exist on a self-existent principle - like God. No one made Him. He has no beginning, is self-existent - was not created, He just always was...

I worry about those who say God created everything - everything is a big word, and encompasses a lot of unloving, unjust, unmerciful things...

Can I quote from a book?

"The existence of evil is a major problem for those who believe in a God who is simultaneously benevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent. Our response to evil is clear, the origin of that evil is not."

Might I suggest something?
God did not create everything, he is not hypocritical, He is Loving, merciful, and just.

We lived with Him before we were born on Earth
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee ...

The Eden's tree was necessary for existence - opposition is necessary for men to be able to think. God tests us with opposition, and gives us our free agency - taking away our ability to choose and think for ourself would be taking away our potential to become perfect. You cannot become perfect without the ability to think for yourself, and you cannot think for yourself without two opposing choices - just laws of life, requirements for Meaningful existence that was not dictated by God. Some part of life is self-existent, and is not created. Eternal = no end, and no beginning.
 
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gluadys

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Some things exist on a self-existent principle - like God.

And are they not then also gods?

I worry about those who say God created everything - everything is a big word, and encompasses a lot of unloving, unjust, unmerciful things...

Can I quote from a book?

"The existence of evil is a major problem for those who believe in a God who is simultaneously benevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent. Our response to evil is clear, the origin of that evil is not."

Quote all you like. But remember that this problem has been known to Christians (and all those who believe in a benevolent deity) for a long time. It is not as if we have not been wrestling with the implications for millennia. It may be new to you, but it is not new, and the proposed solutions, even yours, are not new.

So keep investigating and don't worry too much about those of us who prefer a different solution. You will probably find your own ideas change with time too.

Might I suggest something?
God did not create everything, he is not hypocritical, He is Loving, merciful, and just.

We lived with Him before we were born on Earth
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee ...

Does that not make all of us gods by nature?
One of the reasons for not holding to the eternal nature of the soul is to remind us that we are not gods, to keep us, as creatures, from the pride of desiring to be "like god". The doctrine of creation teaches us that we have no life apart from God--either now or in eternity. We are creatures dependent for our being on our Creator.

And what of evil? You suggested in your first post that God did not create evil. Is evil eternal too? What is our hope if evil is eternal? If evil had the same capacity to endure eternally as the goodness and love of God there will never be an end to wrong and suffering. The vision in Revelation of God "wiping every tear from their eye" will never come to pass.
 
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“But the solution is worse than the original problem. For if evil is something that exists without creation, then it is also an eternal Being and can never be overcome. When good and evil are both eternal, there is no hope for the abolition of evil.”

Is hell not eternal…
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

It is OK because we can separate ourselves from evil, and evil allows us to think, reason, appreciate, live… Weather I like it or not, opposites define each other. Sin does not exist without righteousness… don’t know if this will make sense or not, but it is the general theory of relativity – an object alone in a void with nothing to compare it to – nothing to oppose it – for such an object velocity does not exist, forces do not exist, life does not exist. Opposition is a requirement for sentient existence.

Is this solution really worse? To be sentient, to have choices, to have a free will – what is wrong with this?
 
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"Does that not make all of us gods by nature?"

God is perfect - if we allow ourself to become His creation, His creation would be no less majestic than He is.

What is the purpose of heaven for you? To sit and play harps? We are being tested to find if we are able to take upon us a great responsibility...
 
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gluadys

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Is hell not eternal…

No. Death and hell are to be destroyed in the last judgment. Rev. 20:14

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

So, you see, the fire was "prepared for the devil and his angels" It is not eternal, it was created. Nor are the devil and his angels eternal. (Nor God's angels either.) They were all created. They may be immortal (never suffering death), but they are not eternal (without beginning or end).

I also consider all such language to be metaphorical.


It is OK because we can separate ourselves from evil, and evil allows us to think, reason, appreciate, live…

This suggests that God himself needs evil as a foil to be able to think, reason, appreciate, live. Are you sure you want to go there? Is God's Being dependent on the existence of evil?

Weather I like it or not, opposites define each other. Sin does not exist without righteousness… don’t know if this will make sense or not, but it is the general theory of relativity – an object alone in a void with nothing to compare it to – nothing to oppose it – for such an object velocity does not exist, forces do not exist, life does not exist. Opposition is a requirement for sentient existence.

I find this a confusion of categories. "Good" and "evil" are defined as if they were sensory opposites like "heat & cold" "dry & wet" etc.

But notice that we cannot define a sensory opposite as "good" or "evil". We can define too much of something, too much heat, or cold or dryness or wetness as "evil" but the circumstances will vary. What is "too much" heat differs a great deal from the Sahara Desert to the Canadian Arctic.

But can we ever say that we have "too much" good or "too little" evil? The question is silly. "Good" and "evil" are not that kind of opposite, so the whole argument of good needing evil to define it falls apart because they are not the same sort of opposite as those defined by sentience.


Is this solution really worse? To be sentient, to have choices, to have a free will – what is wrong with this?
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Neither sentience nor free will require evil. Free will requires the freedom to refuse the will of God, but not the actuality of it. Had Adam and Eve not sinned, they would still have free will. Sentience does not even require free will. All living things are sentient to some degree.
 
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gluadys

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"Does that not make all of us gods by nature?"

God is perfect - if we allow ourself to become His creation, His creation would be no less majestic than He is.

That doesn't answer the question. A creation, by definition, is not eternal, however majestic it is/becomes. A perfect creation is still not without beginning. A perfect creation is still derivative being. It does not exist apart from God.

You seem to be suggesting that we are gods (independent of God) by nature, but called to become creatures.

What is the purpose of heaven for you? To sit and play harps?


To glorify God and enjoy him forever.

We are being tested to find if we are able to take upon us a great responsibility...

We already have a great responsibility. To have dominion over the earth and its creatures, to care for this planet as stewards accountable to our Creator. We need no greater.
 
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2 Corinthians 5:1 FOR we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

A house not made of hands
An eternal house
Eternal = no beginning, no end – something that is self-existent, and not created see also Jer 1:5

2 Corinthians 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

For in this we groan – our “self-existent nature” is not a perfect one… There is an imperfect part of us – not created by God.

2 Corinthians 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

We desire to be changed by God, refined by Him, molded, adopted by Him – to rid ourself of our imperfect nature.

We can be adopted… (adopted, not created by Him)
Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.


Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Before the foundation of the world – we were not created at birth…
Without blame in love – the redemption purifies us…

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Jesus Christ is God’s only begotten son. The rest of us are adopted – not begotten by Him, but mercifully adopted by Him.

Isaiah 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

The potter did not make the clay – but He can form it into something beautiful.

We can become His creation through the atonement by choosing to live as Christ did.

Glory to God!
 
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