Did Christ at the cross end all the laws?

SabbathBlessings · Apr 15, 2022

Leaf473 said:
Thanks, I think.

Seriously, I tried to put myself in the other person's shoes, try to explain what I think they're saying in my own words to myself. Because maybe they have a good idea and it's just not being expressed well.

So I try to give them the benefit of the doubt, set aside my biases, and see if I can explain their idea to myself in a way that makes sense.

Here's what I have so far on the subject of this thread:

##############
"If we love Jesus, we will keep his commandments."

"You mean like love one another?"

"Yes."

"That sounds good. Looks like we agree, unless there's something else."

"There's all the laws that didn't end at the cross."

"Which ones didn't end?"

"There's the ten commandments."

"Well they all make sense, except for one. But I don't want my upbringing to get in the way, maybe I'm in a bad habit. Any other laws?"

"Yes."

"What are they?"

"First keep the 10, and God will show you the rest."

"That seems weird. Are they a secret?"

System message: Communication link ended.
#############

So it sounds good at the beginning, but no one who puts this teaching forward seems to be able to say what the rest of the laws are.

I am assuming this is directed to me, so I'll take the liberty of adding some context for you....

Someone asked Jesus which commandments to keep and Jesus answered directly from the Ten and from the greatest commandments. So Jesus didn't "do away" with the Ten that was written by the finger of God and stored in the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of God's Temple which is also revealed in Heaven Revelation 11:19 that came in a unit of Ten Exodus 34:28, not nine.

Matthew 19:17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

Leaf473 said:
"First keep the 10, and God will show you the rest."

We have talked about the laws for two years. Many posters have gone in great detail with you, but you have rejected everything shared, mainly over 1 commandment that people go to great lengths to forget despite God telling us the opposite. The scripture that has been shared doesn't seem to line up with what you're okay with believing, so it is rejected. There is no secret law to keep. After discussing the same question for a very long time, what difference would it make going any further if you reject everything shared with you. That is why I offered the suggestion to see if you can receive the promise of the bible that the Holy Spirit will teach us all things John 14:26 but the Spirit is given to those who obey. Acts 5:32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.” Jesus gives us the Holy Spirit to obey His commandments and as shown Jesus quoted directly from the Ten instead of deleting them and repeated verbatim what God said right in the Ten Commandments John 14:15, Exodus 20:6. Please do not turn this around to something completely out of context.

I have shared with you, as many scriptures as possible that I can and I believe the promise that Holy Spirit will teach us all things for those who have not harden their heart to the Truth. It really comes down to, will you allow God's will to replace our will, wherever that may lead, even if that means being obedient to all of God's law, not just the ones we are okay to keep. We are called to worship God in Truth and Spirit John 4:23-24 and many have replaced God's commandments with traditions of men, which Jesus said doing so is worshipping in vain. Matthew 15:3-9.

Leaf473 · Apr 15, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
Lets quote James so we are on the same page. . .

James 2:10-12 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

Since you seem unsure about the laws, let's start with the easy part as James quotes directly from the Ten and tells us this is how we will be judged. Previously you said you did not need to keep these laws. James seems to say otherwise.

Here's another thought.

If the idea is
Keep some laws now and set aside the rest for later,
then we run into Jesus saying not to set aside the least commandment, and don't teach others to do that, either.

SabbathBlessings · Apr 15, 2022

Leaf473 said:
Here's another thought.

If the idea is
Keep some laws now and set aside the rest for later,
then we run into Jesus saying not to set aside the least commandment, and don't teach others to do that, either.

Thats why we shouldn't do that, but if we can't get past the basics does the others really matter. When Jesus said this in Matthew 5:19 He certainly included the Ten as He quoted from them verbatim. Matthew 5:17-30

SabbathBlessings · Apr 15, 2022

Leaf473 said:
No, you're not understanding what I'm saying.

Here's a simple, concrete question:
How many laws didn't end at the cross?

Using your criteria, I estimate over 400.

Is that what you're thinking, too?

It's a simple numbers question. What is your estimate?

How many laws are in the Ten Commandments?

trophy33 · Apr 15, 2022

Leaf473 said:
Thanks, I think.

Seriously, I tried to put myself in the other person's shoes, try to explain what I think they're saying in my own words to myself. Because maybe they have a good idea and it's just not being expressed well.

So I try to give them the benefit of the doubt, set aside my biases, and see if I can explain their idea to myself in a way that makes sense.

Here's what I have so far on the subject of this thread:

##############
"If we love Jesus, we will keep his commandments."

"You mean like love one another?"

"Yes."

"That sounds good. Looks like we agree, unless there's something else."

"There's all the laws that didn't end at the cross."

"Which ones didn't end?"

"There's the ten commandments."

"Well they all make sense, except for one. But I don't want my upbringing to get in the way, maybe I'm in a bad habit. Any other laws?"

"Yes."

"What are they?"

"First keep the 10, and God will show you the rest."

"That seems weird. Are they a secret?"

System message: Communication link ended.
#############

So it sounds good at the beginning, but no one who puts this teaching forward seems to be able to say what the rest of the laws are.

I do not think this is how it really begins. They may present it in this way, but its not the true beginning of their views.

Their arguments were debunked so many times and their misused quotations put into the right context so many times that its obvious their real motivation is elsewhere.

Leaf473 · Apr 15, 2022

Aquila0121 said:
I'd like to point out that the blood of the New Covenant was not yet shed at the Cross when Christ admonished those healed to "offer the gift that Moses commanded". Technically, everyone was still under the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses didn't end until the Cross... the Church didn't begin until Pentecost... and the entire Mosaic system didn't come to a violent end until AD 70 when the Romans destroyed the Temple and the entire Mosaic system of worship and sacrifices.

Very true!

As it relates to this discussion, sometimes people point to Jesus quoting some of the ten commandments and say that this must mean that they didn't end at the cross. After all, we want to follow Jesus' instructions, don't we?

But in Matthew 8, Jesus tells the cleansed leper to not only show himself to the priest, but also to take the offering that Moses commanded.

Almost no Christian thinks we should do that today. So it turns out that No, we don't follow every instruction that Jesus gave.

Leaf473 · Apr 15, 2022

Guojing said:
You don't think Acts 21:18-25 is clear enough in stating that, for True Israel, no law ended at the cross?

Acts 21 was so many years after the cross =)

18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.

19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.

23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

I don't think Acts 21 states that "for True Israel, no law ended at the cross", that's why I was asking what your views were on the subject.

So as it relates to the thread topic, is it fair to say that you believe that
for Believers, all laws ended either at the cross or at the destruction of the Temple?

SabbathBlessings · Apr 15, 2022

Leaf473 said:
Very true!

As it relates to this discussion, sometimes people point to Jesus quoting some of the ten commandments and say that this must mean that they didn't end at the cross. After all, we want to follow Jesus' instructions, don't we?

Did Jesus not obey all the commandments and told us to as well? Isn't the example of Jesus who kept all the commandments good enough for us? Scripture tells us to follow Jesus' example. Jesus said to love the Lord with all your heart Matthew 22:37, not sure how that can be done by breaking one of the commandments that God wrote with His own finger and asked us to remember. All Ten Commandments have been repeated for everyday Christian living in the New Covenant, but people believe what they want and it will eventually all gets sorted out. God bless.

Leaf473 · Apr 15, 2022

Guojing said:
Well Jesus said Matthew 15:24 before that last Passover.

Did he indicate, in any way, that during that Passover, that statement was no longer valid?

No, the statement is still valid. Jesus was sent to the Lost sheep of the House of Israel.

The New Covenant is made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah (essentially the same people Jesus is sent to).

Jesus initiates the New Covenant when he says This is the New Covenant in my blood.

When we as gentiles believe in Jesus, we get attached to that Covenant. Kind of like an amendment to a contract.

Paul uses the metaphor of a tree which has had a new part grafted on.

Leaf473 · Apr 15, 2022

Aquila0121 said:
I'd like to point out that the blood of the New Covenant was not yet shed at the Cross when Christ admonished those healed to "offer the gift that Moses commanded". Technically, everyone was still under the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses didn't end until the Cross... the Church didn't begin until Pentecost... and the entire Mosaic system didn't come to a violent end until AD 70 when the Romans destroyed the Temple and the entire Mosaic system of worship and sacrifices.

I'm happy to discuss the law with anyone.

So... Do you think we should still try to keep the entire law, and that's what will humble us?

Akita Suggagaki · Apr 15, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
When Jesus said this in Matthew 5:19 He certainly included the Ten as He quoted from them verbatim. Matthew 5:17-30

Not quite.

Jesus replied, “‘(6th)You shall not murder, (7th) you shall not commit adultery, (8th) you shall not steal, (9th) you shall not give false testimony, (5th) honor your father and mother,’ and (not even among the 10) ‘love your neighbor as yourself.

and then added, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

SabbathBlessings · Apr 15, 2022

Akita Suggagaki said:
Not quite.

Jesus replied, “‘(6th)You shall not murder, (7th) you shall not commit adultery, (8th) you shall not steal, (9th) you shall not give false testimony, (5th) honor your father and mother,’ and (not even among the 10) ‘love your neighbor as yourself.

and then added, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

Are you saying that because Jesus didn't quote all of the commandments here that means the rest are deleted? Thats an interesting way to read scripture. So that means since He didn't say here "love God with all thy heart" that is deleted too?

When Jesus quotes from the Ten Commandments, that means they are all still in effect, because this is God's law that God wrote with His own finger that came in a unit of Ten, not nine or eight Exodus 34:28.

When Jesus was talking to the rich young ruler, He was quoting the commandments about loving man and that apply to loving man. The rich young ruler claimed he was keeping those, but he went away sad, because the commandments he wasn't keeping are the ones dealing with loving God, the first 4 commandments. The rich young ruler placed his great wealth over following Jesus breaking commandment number 1 that you shall not have any gods above Him. This is meant to be a good lesson for all of us.

Akita Suggagaki · Apr 15, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
Are you saying that because Jesus didn't quote all of the commandments here that means the rest are deleted?

No. But then I am not one to be so legalistic about scripture in the first place. I am just pointing out that Jesus did not in fact quote all the commandments verbatim as you stated. How one rationalizes that fact is a personal choice.

SabbathBlessings · Apr 15, 2022

Akita Suggagaki said:
No. But then I am not one to be so legalistic about scripture in the first place. I am just pointing out that Jesus did not in fact quote all the commandments verbatim as you stated. How one rationalizes that fact is a personal choice.

Who is being legalistic? Why would you think that? Obeying God should be because of love. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments 1 John 5:3. Is Jesus legalistic who also obeyed and kept the commandments as our example? John 15:10

You also might want to re-read what I stated. I said He quoted from the Ten verbatim, which means they are not deleted as many teach.

Leaf473 · Apr 15, 2022

@Aquila0121

Oops, my bad! This post was supposed be in response to @Neogaia777, post #488.

I don't know how that happened. I go through the posts one at a time, so who knows what chaos I have wrought

Leaf473 said:
I'm happy to discuss the law with anyone.

So... Do you think we should still try to keep the entire law, and that's what will humble us?

expos4ever · Apr 15, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
If we are going to be judged by the law- breaking God's law is considered sin 1 John 3:4 and the law is what points out sin Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7

Again:

1 John 3:4: this text does not mention the Law of Moses! Yes, sin is lawlessness, but this does not mean that a particular law - the Law of Moses including the 10 - remains in effect.

Romans 3:20: Context is key. You are conveniently silent on the fact that, in context, Paul is describing what was the case - that the Law did, in the past, let the Jew know what sin was. How do we know that this is now in the past? The very next verse! But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been revealed, ....

Romans 7:7: You do not account for context. Once more, you remain conveniently tight-lipped on the fact that Paul has just told us that we no longer serve the Law. In context, and this can be argued at length, Paul believes the time of the Law has come to an end, but he can still praise it for the role it played in an evolving plan.

Leaf473 · Apr 15, 2022

Neogaia777 said:
The law is still the standard, and the only thing that changed, was only our realization that no one could ever live up to it continually perfectly, not before being born-again, and not after, etc, which is supposed to; well, for one, humble us, and then for another, lead us into a new and living way with Christ, because the other way became dead, and had died...

Would you like to discuss this new and living way, etc...?

Or would you also like to discuss also, how it is supposed to humble us, etc...?

God Bless!

I'm happy to discuss the law with anyone.

So... Do you think we should still try to keep the entire law, and that's what will humble us?

(There, I think I responded to the right person this time )

expos4ever · Apr 15, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
If we are going to be judged by the law....

Paul does not believe we are all going to be judged by the same law:

For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

Paul is saying that Gentile will not be judged by the Law of Moses. And how could they be? They are not under it and many do not even know it exists.

And the Jew who lived during the time of the Law of Moses will be judged by it.

Leaf473 · Apr 15, 2022

myst33 said:
"Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard."
Lv 19:27

Almost any modern man does that, because its the common style. If we are under the Mosaic law, its a sin.

Absolutely! The rubric proposed on this thread for deciding what ended at the cross is Only laws related to sacrifices, offerings, and circumcision ended.

That would mean the beard cutting commandment remains, according to the rubric.

And as you point out, that chapter of Leviticus and with a law that says to keep all the laws. If anything, that would be the law that breaks the rubric.

expos4ever · Apr 15, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
Is Jesus legalistic who also obeyed and kept the commandments as our example? John 15:10

We are not allowed to discuss the matter of the Sabbath. Putting aside the 10 (since we cannot discuss them without talking about all 10 and the Sabbath is off the table for discussion), Jesus certainly did not obey the rest of the law, as I have argued in earlier posts.

SabbathBlessings said:
I said He quoted from the Ten verbatim, which means they are not deleted as many teach.

The logic here is simply not correct - just because Jesus quoted the Law does not mean He affirms that they remain in force to this day.

Did Christ at the cross end all the laws?

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