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ChetSinger

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When we sin we do not corrupt our hearts, not at first. It takes a long time to reach the point where the heart may be regarded as corrupt. Normal, everyday sins separate us from God, but do not destroy our innate goodness.
I shouldn't have used the word 'corrupt'. It has different meanings to different people. I think I should've just said that we're not born guilty, but with an inherited propensity to eventually sin, and left it at that.
 
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Catherineanne

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I shouldn't have used the word 'corrupt'. It has different meanings to different people. I think I should've just said that we're not born guilty, but with an inherited propensity to eventually sin, and left it at that.

Yes, that is much closer to reality. : )
 
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GillDouglas

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If we are born innocent and good, why aren’t there at least some people who have continued in this state and remained sinless? The fact that everybody sins needs some explanation. The best explanation is that we are sinners by nature. Someone might argue that the reason all people sin is because society is sinful, and thus society renders it impossible for anybody to keep themselves entirely pure. But that only pushes the question back one step. How did society get sinful in the first place? If people are born morally good, then how did it come about that they congregated into societies that influence all people to sin? If humanity is not born in sin, wouldn’t we expect there to be some people who have “beaten the odds” and never sinned?
 
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ChetSinger

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I notice you're Presbyterian, and I tend toward Arminianism, so we're probably venturing into territory where we'll disagree.

To answer your question, I believe no one can come to God without him first being involved. The first involvement was the atonement, of course, but I believe these words from Jesus remain true: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him".
 
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ChetSinger

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That's wonderful. But it hasn't been my experience. For example, each of my children has lied to me and been punished for it. They've all grown up and made me proud, but there have been numerous spankings, timeouts, and favor-withholdings along the way.
 
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Niblo

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You have a rebellious three year old? How very odd
 
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GillDouglas

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Very good sir, I see that we will not agree on much but on that at least we can. Only by God's grace do we even come to know Him and then accept the need for His son, Jesus.
 
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GillDouglas

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You have a rebellious three year old? How very odd
Haha. Yes, very much so. She is a child after her own heart at the moment. My wife and I pray that God would soften that heart of hers someday, and until then give us the ability to show her grace as He has for us.
 
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Niblo

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Haha. Yes, very much so. She is a child after her own heart at the moment. My wife and I pray that God would soften that heart of hers someday, and until then give us the ability to show her grace as He has for us.

Her heart isn't hard......it's just toddler. Some of the finest people I've known were Christian.....better folk than yours truly for sure. But they were all toddlers once!
 
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Catherineanne

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The story of Adam and Eve is the story of each one of us; we began in a state of innocency, we learned to distinguish good from evil, we chose to do wrong and we fell from grace. Chances are we then tried to blame someone else for what we had done rather than taking responsibility ourselves.

Adam is Everyman.
 
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Catherineanne

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Her heart isn't hard......it's just toddler. Some of the finest people I've known were Christian.....better folk than yours truly for sure. But they were all toddlers once!

Yes, perfectly normal. : )
 
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Catherineanne

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Tell me about it. I've had three of them......and six grandkids! I have the white hair to prove it

I only have one daughter, and I had no white hair at all before she was born, as I often remind her. : D

Ramadan Mubarak, to you and yours.
 
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smaneck

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I think there are some, but they are admittedly very rare. If a person makes a million choices in life, what are the odds all of them will be right? I don't think we have to posit a notion of 'sinners by nature' to explain this. Isn't it sufficient to acknowledge that mistakes are going to be made and hopefully we learn from them?
 
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Niblo

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I only have one daughter, and I had no white hair at all before she was born, as I often remind her. : D

Ramadan Mubarak, to you and yours.

A pound will get me a penny she was (and is) worth it.

Thank you for your greeting. God bless you both.

Have a great week.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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If you hold that all people are basically corrupt by birth, how does this NOT turn Christianity into a misanthropic world view?

Yeah, sure, God saves *some* of us worthless refuse (by no merit of our own), but that doesn't really change the horrifyingly negative image of humanity at its heart.
 
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