Did Adam and Eve have free will?

[MercyBurst]

Adam and Eve were created without sin and yet they sinned anyway. They had a choice to obey or not to obey God. Or did they? If they did not have a free will then God predestinated sin.

The rest of humanity is born in sin, but apparantly, according to Calvinist doctrine, not all of them are given a choice to become righteous.

At face value this seems to be unfair. A&E had a choice, but what about people that aren't "elect" according to Calvinism? What real choice are they given?

Please spare me the hypotheticals which the "non-elect" aren't allowed to have (because of predestination), like hypothetical repentence, etc. These hypotheticals are just empty promises.

Let's talk in REAL terms instead.

 

[heymikey80]

When you talk about REAL terms, the result is that everyone REALLY has sin, and so all REALLY deserve death.

In REAL terms, everyone is fit for flames. And without the Spirit of God being given, everyone is DOA.

Continuing outside the hypothetical, there're essentially two options that avoid universalism (which is impossible to carry on the statements of Scripture). Either the Spirit of God is given to everyone and is ineffective for some, or the Spirit of God is given to some and effective for them. Both have limitations -- neither is universal. So neither REALLY is a solution for all.

In fact the ineffective Spirit is more hypothetical than Particular Redemption. After all, it's just a promise, and then only "if you stay in line" with the ineffective Spirit. When it's based on your will -- it's uncertain. Hypothetically you could be gone tomorrow. Hypothetical offers are a tricky thing. Putting control in the hands of a sinful creature's vacillating will is much more hypothetical than putting it in the hands of the unlying Living God.

As it is Calvinism says the creature's vacillating will gains ground in righteousness to ultimately gain the victory, by relying on the wholly effective Spirit of God and the Atonement of Christ (Rom 7:25-8:38). But our salvation doesn't chase our own wills -- it's God that does it all in us.

 

[MercyBurst]

When you talk about REAL terms, the result is that everyone REALLY has sin, and so all REALLY deserve death.

In REAL terms, everyone is fit for flames. And without the Spirit of God being given, everyone is DOA.

I agree 100%.

Continuing outside the hypothetical, there're essentially two options that avoid universalism (which is impossible to carry on the statements of Scripture).

I agree that the scriptures do not assure that everyone will be saved, only that they can be saved in this life by surrendering to the Lord.

Either the Spirit of God is given to everyone and is ineffective for some, or the Spirit of God is given to some and effective for them.

OK, you must define what is meant by "the spirit of God being given."

Here is an example I find in Hebrews 6 (I'm not trying to debate):

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Holy Matt 12:31, Mark 3:29, Acts 7:51, Heb 10:26

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
world
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

These people in Hebrews 6 apparantly had the Holy Ghost "given" in some sense of the word.

Both have limitations -- neither is universal. So neither REALLY is a solution for all.

I'm not sure what you mean here.

In fact the ineffective Spirit is more hypothetical than Particular Redemption. After all, it's just a promise, and then only "if you stay in line" with the ineffective Spirit.

I believe in free will before salvation and predestination after salvation. I don't have to "stay in line" once I surrender to God's sovereign will.

When it's based on your will -- it's uncertain.

I agree, however I surrenderd my will to Christ.

Hypothetically you could be gone tomorrow. Hypothetical offers are a tricky thing. Putting control in the hands of a sinful creature's vacillating will is much more hypothetical than putting it in the hands of the unlying Living God.

When I got saved that's exactly what I did -- I gave my will to God.

As it is Calvinism says the creature's vacillating will gains ground in righteousness to ultimately gain the victory, by relying on the wholly effective Spirit of God and the Atonement of Christ (Rom 7:25-8:38). But our salvation doesn't chase our own wills -- it's God that does it all in us.

I'm not sure what you are saying here.

 

[BBAS 64]

Adam and Eve were created without sin and yet they sinned anyway. They had a choice to obey or not to obey God. Or did they? If they did not have a free will then God predestinated sin.

Good day, Mercy

Let's set some ground work....

Sin "rebels" started in Heaven, so did God know that was going to happen?

Indeed they had a choice they chose wrongly and as a result we are all sinners at birth, we sin because we are sinners, not sinners because we sin.

Define your usage of predestination, as I belive you have drawn a fallacy in your conclusion:

"If they did not have a free will then God predestinated sin

The rest of humanity is born in sin, but apparantly, according to Calvinist doctrine, not all of them are given a choice to become righteous.

Seems some one has a misconception of imputed "righteous"

There are none that are so, not even one. Are you suggesting a man can make himself so?

At face value this seems to be unfair. A&E had a choice, but what about people that aren't "elect" according to Calvinism? What real choice are they given?

You can not chose that which you do not know, the flesh can not desern that with is spiritual. So it can not be choosen. I guess that would depend on what you deem as "fair" it would be fair for God to send us all to hell. Thanks be he gives mercy to whosoever he wills to give it to, and grants repentance to some.

Please spare me the hypotheticals which the "non-elect" aren't allowed to have (because of predestination), like hypothetical repentence, etc. These hypotheticals are just empty promises.

Let's talk in REAL terms instead.

This is way out there...

In Him,

Bill

 

[MercyBurst]

Good day, Mercy

Let's set some ground work....

Sin "rebels" started in Heaven, so did God know that was going to happen?

God knew it or He wouldn't be God.

Indeed they had a choice they chose wrongly and as a result we are all sinners at birth, we sin because we are sinners, not sinners because we sin.

So they did choose, indeed they have the will to choose.

Define your usage of predestination, as I belive you have drawn a fallacy in your conclusion:

as defined in theological fatalism:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatalism





"If they did not have a free will then God predestinated sin

Seems some one has a misconception of imputed "righteous"

Not sure what you mean here.

There are none that are so, not even one. Are you suggesting a man can make himself so?

I never suggested that.

You can not chose that which you do not know, the flesh can not desern that with is spiritual. So it can not be choosen. I guess that would depend on what you deem as "fair" it would be fair for God to send us all to hell. Thanks be he gives mercy to whosoever he wills to give it to, and grants repentance to some.

I believe God grants repentence to all. We all have a bible where we can read about it. The main problem is the other gods that man has in his life and pride.

This is way out there...

In Him,

Bill

What I meant to say is this: it's easy for someone to debate hypotheticals that have no real application if everything is set in granite through predestination. If a frog had wings it could fly, but that's no help in a real discussion.

 

[BBAS 64]

God knew it or He wouldn't be God.



So they did choose, indeed they have the will to choose.




as defined in theological fatalism:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatalism





"If they did not have a free will then God predestinated sin




Not sure what you mean here.



I never suggested that.



I believe God grants repentence to all. We all have a bible where we can read about it. The main problem is the other gods that man has in his life and pride.



What I meant to say is this: it's easy for someone to debate hypotheticals that have no real application if everything is set in granite through predestination. If a frog had wings it could fly, but that's no help in a real discussion.

Good Day, MercyBurst

Well then there is part of your problem you are working under the wrong pretext of "predestined":


proorizō

1) to predetermine, decide beforehand
2) in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
3) to foreordain, appoint beforehand
Part of Speech: verb


As to repentance being Granted to all, scripture please arguments from silence not very use full. Plus I am a Sola Scriptura kind of guy

Scripture states:

2Ti 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
2Ti 2:26 and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.


In Him,

Bill

 

[MercyBurst]

Good Day, MercyBurst

Well then there is part of your problem you are working under the wrong pretext of "predestined":


proorizō

1) to predetermine, decide beforehand
2) in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
3) to foreordain, appoint beforehand
Part of Speech: verb

Hello Bill, it's nice of you to be cordial.


I agree with the definitions. I take this view: Time is God's creation. To God there is no difference between eternity past and eternity future. Man is limited by time but God is not. Hence God knows everything there is to know, including who will will be saved.


Being an engineer, I know from the laws of physics, that if do the right things with motion, metal and magnetism, I can "create" electricity that flows from your wall socket. In a sense you could say I predestinate it from my forknowledge of physics. But I won't give you electricity unless you ask to be my customer.

Oh yeah, and by the way, somebody has to pay the electricity bill since you can't. You can thank Jesus for that.

As to repentance being Granted to all, scripture please arguments from silence not very use full. Plus I am a Sola Scriptura kind of guy

So what are you saying here: a person can not be sorry enough to repent? How sorry does a person have to be?

Scripture states:

2Ti 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
2Ti 2:26 and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

In my mind, there is no doubt about it -- the Holy Spirit has to do some convicting before we can repent. We do not see Him face to face like we see the rest of humanity, and hence God (being hidden from our view) must reveal himself in some way. Otherwise we don't know, except by our own conscience which He gives every man (*). I've always believed that God existed, but I was 28 before I believed in Christ as my savior.

(*)ref Romans 1

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Hab 2:4, Gal 3:11, Heb 10:38
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
creation Gen 1:1, Job 38:4, Isa 44:24, Col 1:16, Heb 11:3, Rev 4:11
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Yep, there's no doubt about it. There are people in hell that God revealed himself to, and they have absolutely no excuse for their poor choice. They knew better. Their poor choice led them into greater darkness, where they are now without conscience. They can no longer hear God calling them.

 

[BBAS 64]

Hello Bill, it's nice of you to be cordial.


I agree with the definitions. I take this view: Time is God's creation. To God there is no difference between eternity past and eternity future. Man is limited by time but God is not. Hence God knows everything there is to know, including who will will be saved.


Being an engineer, I know from the laws of physics, that if do the right things with motion, metal and magnetism, I can "create" electricity that flows from your wall socket. In a sense you could say I predestinate it from my forknowledge of physics. But I won't give you electricity unless you ask to be my customer.

Oh yeah, and by the way, somebody has to pay the electricity bill since you can't. You can thank Jesus for that.




So what are you saying here: a person can not be sorry enough to repent? How sorry does a person have to be?



In my mind, there is no doubt about it -- the Holy Spirit has to do some convicting before we can repent. We do not see Him face to face like we see the rest of humanity, and hence God (being hidden from our view) must reveal himself in some way. Otherwise we don't know, excpet by our own conscience which He gives every man, from Romans 1. I've always beleived that God existed, but I was 28 before I believed in Christ as my savior:



Yep, there's no doubt about it. There are people in hell that God revealed himself to, and they have absolutely no excuse for their choice.

Good Day, MercyBurst

Verse for what you believe please?

You said;

"I believe God grants repentence to all."

I am trying to understand why you believe this when Scripture is clear God may or may not grant it.

Being sorry is not repentance, one can not and has no desire to repent unless the "repentance" is granted.

That is right they did choose, absent being granted repentance a wicked herat will freely choose darkness as they love it.

In Him,

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

Adam and Eve were created without sin and yet they sinned anyway. They had a choice to obey or not to obey God. Or did they? If they did not have a free will then God predestinated sin.

The rest of humanity is born in sin, but apparantly, according to Calvinist doctrine, not all of them are given a choice to become righteous.

At face value this seems to be unfair. A&E had a choice, but what about people that aren't "elect" according to Calvinism? What real choice are they given?

Please spare me the hypotheticals which the "non-elect" aren't allowed to have (because of predestination), like hypothetical repentence, etc. These hypotheticals are just empty promises.

Let's talk in REAL terms instead.

Good Day, MercyBurst

There was a debate that covered this issue:

http://www.christianforums.com/t1169330-sinner.html

This may help you.

In Him,

Bill

 

[MercyBurst]

Good Day, MercyBurst

Verse for what you believe please?

You said;

"I believe God grants repentence to all."

I am trying to understand why you believe this when Scripture is clear God may or may not grant it.

2 Peter 3:9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Note that the verse does not say this:

2 Peter 3:9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering only to the elect and not to anyone else, not willing that any of the chosen few should perish, but that only the elite should come to repentance and nobody else. They don't get a chance and that's too bad.

What an empty promise if it is made only to the elect! Not only that, it is not even logical to read the verse that way. Obviously repentence changed the course of those that were on the path to damnation. If they were elect yet could have perished, then the verse is logical inconsistent with itself. It's like saying a crow is black and not black. This is not possible because it violates the law of excluded middles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excluded_middle

Logos created logic, and logos is God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. Anything that is not logical is a lie.

Being sorry is not repentance, one can not and has no desire to repent unless the "repentance" is granted.

Everyone that repents is sorry for their sins. If they aren't, then they haven't really repented. I was sorry for my sins before I repented.

That is right they did choose, absent being granted repentance a wicked herat will freely choose darkness as they love it.

You will have to explain what "granted" means. I believe repentance is available to anyone if they should so choose. 2nd Peter 2:9 makes that crystal clear.

 

[bradfordl]

Hey there, MB

I believe in free will before salvation and predestination after salvation. I don't have to "stay in line" once I surrender to God's sovereign will.

I agree, however I surrenderd my will to Christ.

When I got saved that's exactly what I did -- I gave my will to God.

So, before salvation, where did your free-will find the righteousness to be able to surrender itself to God? Where did it find the righteousness to choose to be saved? Please answer these questions in light of the following:

Rom 3:10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, There is none that seeketh after God;
Rom 3:12 They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There is none that doeth good, no, not, so much as one:
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; With their tongues they have used deceit: The poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

http://www.htmlbible.com/kjv30/B61C003.htm#V9

2 Peter 3:9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Well, let's look at that verse in context:

First, the epistle is addressed to -

2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and the Saviour Jesus Christ:

So he's talking to them that have obtained a like precious faith, right? Then in the chapter you reference he says -

2Pe 3:8 But forget not this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

He's addressing the beloved, and states that God is not slack to you-ward, so grammatically the any must be a part of the you, not all of humanity. Taking one verse out of its context does not prove your argument. In fact, misuse of scripture like that detracts from your plausibility.

If you actually believe your interpretation of that verse, then you must have a low view of God's ability to carry out His will. If He's not willing that any human perish, and yet scripture plainly teaches that multitudes do, what is it that overpowers His will? Please answer that question in light of the following:

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

And:

Isa 50:2 Wherefore, when I came, was there no man? when I called, was there none to answer? Is my hand shortened at all, that it cannot redeem? or have I no power to deliver? behold, at my rebuke I dry up the sea, I make the rivers a wilderness: their fish stinketh, because there is no water, and dieth for thirst.

And:

Isa 59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:

If, as you infer, it is His pleasure that not any human perish, then He was not being truthful in Isaiah 46. If He wants to save all humans, then Isa chapters 50 and 59 would be inaccurate descriptions of His abilities, would they not?
G'day,

Brad

 

[BBAS 64]

2 Peter 3:9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Note that the verse does not say this:

2 Peter 3:9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering only to the elect and not to anyone else, not willing that any of the chosen few should perish, but that only the elite should come to repentance and nobody else. They don't get a chance and that's too bad.

What an empty promise if it is made only to the elect! Not only that, it is not even logical to read the verse that way. Obviously repentence changed the course of those that were on the path to damnation. If they were elect yet could have perished, then the verse is logical inconsistent with itself. It's like saying a crow is black and not black. This is not possible because it violates the law of excluded middles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excluded_middle

Logos created logic, and logos is God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. Anything that is not logical is a lie.



Everyone that repents is sorry for their sins. If they aren't, then they haven't really repented. I was sorry for my sins before I repented.




You will have to explain what "granted" means. I believe repentance is available to anyone if they should so choose. 2nd Peter 2:9 makes that crystal clear.

Good Day, Mercy Burst

I will accept for the sake of this disscussion you useage of "granted", you could look it up on websters. com if you are unclear on the meaning.

2 Pe 2:9, does not deal with the issue of repentance. What you have over looked is the "any" is a pro-noun form to which noun does it refer?

This may help.....

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
In Him,

Bill

 

[MercyBurst]

Good Day, Mercy Burst

I will accept for the sake of this disscussion you useage of "granted", you could look it up on websters. com if you are unclear on the meaning.


Bill

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=grant

[SIZE=-1]GRANT[/SIZE] implies giving to a claimant or petitioner something that could be withheld <granted them a new hearing>.

Yes, I agree with this definition. Salvation can be withheld unless it is petitioned through repentence. So we are in agreement on the conditionality of a petition. However, your own statements are not consistent with this definition, and this is why I asked to start with.

 

[bradfordl]

Yo Mercyburst,

Why don't you reply to my questions above in post #11?

Brad

 

[GodsElect]

2 Peter 3:9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Note that the verse does not say this:

2 Peter 3:9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering only to the elect and not to anyone else, not willing that any of the chosen few should perish, but that only the elite should come to repentance and nobody else. They don't get a chance and that's too bad.

Actually, 2 peter 3:9 is for the elect, sorry, and I have explained this in a earlier post. I love how people take things out of the context of scripture and put it into the context of their own doctrines. I laugh, but cry at the same time because these doctrines are being spewed out like venom to the sheep of God to try and shake their faith. But, yet I rejoice because God preserves His people and this is His promise. I will explain this again...

2 peter 3:8-9 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us,[b] not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

So, who's the beloved?

Who is the "US" peter is referring to?

Lets see...

At the begining of 2 peter 3 it states...

2 peter 3:1 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle...

So he is speaking to the BELOVED to whom he is writing his SECOND epistle to...

Where is the first epistle written to the beloved located in the bible?....

Why 1 peter of course...

Lets go all the way back to the first chapter, first verses, in 1 Peter and see who the beloved really are...

1 peter 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

So you see, ALL OF 1 PETER AND 2 PETER are written TO THE ELECT!

So if you still dont agree, then why dont you just rip these books OUT OF YOUR BIBLE!

 

[GodsElect]

looks like that has been adressed already but maybe it would beat into MB's head further.

 

[BBAS 64]

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=grant

[SIZE=-1]GRANT[/SIZE] implies giving to a claimant or petitioner something that could be withheld <granted them a new hearing>.

Yes, I agree with this definition. Salvation can be withheld unless it is petitioned through repentence. So we are in agreement on the conditionality of a petition. However, your own statements are not consistent with this definition, and this is why I asked to start with.

Good day, MB

You seem to use salvation and repentance as being the same in function.

If God does not give repentance one can not (unable) to repent.

2Ti 2:25 in meekness correcting them that oppose themselves; if peradventure God may give them repentance unto the knowledge of the truth,
2Ti 2:26 and they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him unto his will.
The reptance that God grant is unto the knowledge of the truth.

Seeing scripture does not teach (all) are granted repentance as you have asserted with out basis.

Scripture that teaches some-one asking for the abilty to (repent)?

Only those who are of God have the abilty to hear.

Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth the words of God: for this cause ye hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Those who are not (hearing) are of thier father the devil, who has taken them captive by his will. Only if chriat sets them free will they be free indeed, if Christ does not set then free... well you get the point.

Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.


In Him,

Bill