Determinism

Lilly of the Valley · Mar 2, 2006

D McCloud said:
technically yes, but whether it's acceptable or not in our society is another issue.

You're making a choice but your not making a free choice. The conditions are making you choose what's only natural for you to choose given the options, you can't selectively choose something the conditions don't allow for. Your actions are being controlled by your options.

Well, there are options...but you can choose from one of them. The conditions aren't making you choose something. Something may be natural to choose and the conditions help induce the choice, but does that mean you definitely beyond a doubt are going to choose it because of the conditions and such?

D McCloud · Mar 2, 2006

Lilly of the Valley said:
Well, there are options...but you can choose from one of them. The conditions aren't making you choose something. Something may be natural to choose and the conditions help induce the choice, but does that mean you definitely beyond a doubt are going to choose it because of the conditions and such?

The illusion is that you have the option of 'choosing' when you don't (at least not in the free will sense).

Yes you're right, the conditions alone arn't making you choose something, although they playing a major undeniable role in your decisions. However, when you start to factor in you're upbringing, gender, race, economic statues, sexual preference (all these things uncontrollable) into why you make a choice, you realize that choice was not as free as you thought.

Determinism is a combination of these things.

Lilly of the Valley · Mar 2, 2006

D McCloud said:
The illusion is that you have the option of 'choosing' when you don't (at least not in the free will sense).

Yes you're right, the conditions alone arn't making you choose something, although they playing a major undeniable role in your decisions. However, when you start to factor in you're upbringing, gender, race, economic statues, sexual preference (all these things uncontrollable) into why you make a choice, you realize that choice was not as free as you thought.

Determinism is a combination of these things.

But does everything depend on these? Not everything you do depends on gender, upbringing, race...etc... Conditions affect almost everything, but not these...

However, even w/ those, it's still a good level of freedom. I mean, gender and race and etc...aren't going to force you to do something...nor do they make you go on a certain path...

D McCloud · Mar 2, 2006

Lilly of the Valley said:
But does everything depend on these? Not everything you do depends on gender, upbringing, race...etc... Conditions affect almost everything, but not these...

However, even w/ those, it's still a good level of freedom. I mean, gender and race and etc...aren't going to force you to do something...nor do they make you go on a certain path...

That's not true, upbringing, gender, race, etc... affect everything you do. For example, it's well known fact that whites are far more apt to get bank loans than minorities. This affects poverty among minorities, and poverty affects crime. Gender affects how your percieved, and those perceptions affect how you act, dress, and look.

Once again you have to look at these things in there entirety. If gender, race, upbringing, etc.. all have an affect on your choices, and when put together determine those choices, then those choices are not free.

Lilly of the Valley · Mar 2, 2006

D McCloud said:
That's not true, upbringing, gender, race, etc... affect everything you do. For example, it's well known fact that whites are far more apt to get bank loans than minorities. This affects poverty among minorities, and poverty affects crime. Gender affects how your percieved, and those perceptions affect how you act, dress, and look.

Once again you have look at these things in there entirety. If gender, race, upbringing, etc.. all have an affect on your choices, and together determine those choices, then those choices are not free.

But the thing is...they don't determine and set in stone what you will do.

Being in poverty doesn't mean you will do crime, nor does being a female mean you will do female things or things that go along w/ that....All these things can induce things or kind of sway you, but they don't determine and set in stone your choices.

D McCloud · Mar 2, 2006

Lilly of the Valley said:
But the thing is...they don't determine and set in stone what you will do.

Being in poverty doesn't mean you will do crime, nor does being a female mean you will do female things or things that go along w/ that....All these things can induce things or kind of sway you, but they don't determine and set in stone your choices.

That's the thing though, everyone's life experiences are different, that's why it appears as if we have free choices within a society. However, you also have to factor in randomness when thinking of determinism, because random things can happen that may alter you decisions as well.

Like I said before, "the whole is not greater than the sum of its parts."

Being poor means your chances of committing crimes are greater than if you were wealthy or middle class. Now lets factor in uprbring into the equation, and lets say your mom had been a crack addict (in and out of jail most of your life), and your father was in jail. Now, the chances of you doing something illegal increases even more. I'm sure you can continue with this and see where it goes.

When women don't act like women are suppose to act, what happens? They're made fun of (called lesbians, tomboys), and marginalized in society. Now do you think their career decisions and job opportunities go up, stay the same, or decrease?

Lilly of the Valley · Mar 2, 2006

D McCloud said:
That's the thing though, everyone's life experiences are different, that's why it appears as if we have free choices within a society. However, you also have to factor in randomness when thinking of determinism, because random things can happen that may alter you decisions as well.

Like I said before, "the whole is not greater than the sum of its parts."

Being poor means your chances of committing crimes are greater than if you were wealthy or middle class. Now lets factor in uprbring into the equation, and lets say your mom had been a crack addict (in and out of jail most of your life), and your father was in jail. Now, the chances of you doing something illegal increases even more. I'm sure you can continue with this and see where it goes.

When women don't act like women are suppose to act, what happens? They're made fun of (called lesbians, tomboys), and marginalized in society. Now do you think their career decisions and job opportunities go up, stay the same, or decrease?

Yes, the chances and likelyhood are higher, but does that mean the have to do that or have to go the path that is most likely?

Probably decrease. But...does that mean they have to end up w/ a tacky job or disrespect or etc...? Nope...they decide if they will stop them from their goals.

D McCloud · Mar 2, 2006

Lilly of the Valley said:
Yes, the chances and likelyhood are higher, but does that mean the have to do that or have to go the path that is most likely?

Probably decrease. But...does that mean they have to end up w/ a tacky job or disrespect or etc...? Nope...they decide if they will stop them from their goals.

If you keep narrowing it down, yes you can predict what people will do, we use determinism all the time for this. Like I said before you have to factor in randomness as well.

For example, we can predict your chances of losing the lottery accurately, but we still have to leave room for the random chance that you could win. Therefore, if you win, it doesn't mean you chose to do so of your own free will, it's means that some things are random.

That's not true, being determined to do something doesn't have as much to do with success as people would like to think. have you ever heard the expression "it's not what you know, it's who you know," it's the same basic thing. There are systems in place that make it so certain people can't do things.

Lilly of the Valley · Mar 2, 2006

Well.....I choose to agree to disagree....

D McCloud · Mar 2, 2006

Lilly of the Valley said:
Well.....I choose to agree to disagree....

That's still not a free choice you're making, but I'll agree.

Lilly of the Valley · Mar 2, 2006

Hahahaaa!

t_w · Mar 3, 2006

Lilly of the Valley said:
Yes, but what about other 'smaller' moral issues that are still morally wrong, but not needed to be imprisoned or whatnot for?

If a person's actions are determined by other events, then the actions of a pety thief(which slightly harm society) would be determined by a punishment. For example, if we send him to prison or punish him, this may determine him in such a way that makes it less likely he will commit the crime again.
Of course, this all begs the question of how we choose to enforce laws if we have no free will. I don't support any of the views on this thread - I just saw a way of 'answering' your argument against determinism. Determinism can be attacked in many ways, but morality is not one of them. Human actions are not reliable measures of anything - we can't say 'determinism can't be true because then why would humans blame anyone?'. There are many benefits to a society that blames people for their actions and hence the reaosn it has evolved.

JC4Dude · Mar 3, 2006

Can someone give me a quick contrast between determinism and fatalism, and then I'll go back and read the thread (have stopped at page 3)? Thanks.

David Gould · Mar 5, 2006

JC4Dude said:
Can someone give me a quick contrast between determinism and fatalism, and then I'll go back and read the thread (have stopped at page 3)? Thanks.

Fatalism is the notion that no matter what I do, X will be the result.

Under fatalism, you are free to choose your actions. However, you are not free to choose the ultimate outcome.

'The all Father wrote the skein of your life before you were born. If you are going to be killed, hiding in a hole will not save you.'

In other words, if you are doomed to die on the 24th of March, going sky diving on that day will not give a different result than not going sky diving - either way, you will die.

Determinism, on the other hand, says that each and every action is part of the cause and effect chain - what you do this instant causes what you do the next instant, et cetera.

In other words, if you hide in a hole, that is determined as much as what happens after you hide in a hole.

If fatalism was true, then (for example) putting on your seatbelt is a waste of time - it will not save you if you are doomed to die, and if you are not doomed to die then leaving it undone will not hurt you.

If determinism is true, putting on your seatbelt can save your life, as it is part of the causal chain. However, whether you put on the seatbelt or not is also determined - by your upbringing, combined with your biology and so forth.

JC4Dude · Mar 6, 2006

Thanks so much. Now I will go back and reread.

Dylock · Mar 7, 2006

i think the big problem here is that most people a re confused about a compatibilist free will and a libertarian free will.

Lord Emsworth · Mar 7, 2006

Dylock said:
i think the big problem here is that most people a re confused about a compatibilist free will and a libertarian free will.

Compatibilist free will doesn't deserve its name.

levi501 · Mar 7, 2006

Lilly of the Valley said:
I think it does have some bearing, morality that is, because if we are all 'products' of the environment and we aren't responsible, then why not just act any old way and such since it technically isn't your fault or choosing? You can't just ignore that fact.

Truth isn't contingent on how well it sits with your presupposed moral system.

Determinism

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