David Gould said:
It causes it to be that much more likely. But likelyhood doesn't equal having to do something.
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David Gould said:Okay:
Enviroment X influences you such that are more likely to do behaviour Y than those not subject to environment X.
How about we put a number of the 'more likely'. Let us say that you are 55 per cent likely to do X, when people not subject to environment X are 50 per cent likely to do X.
Doesn't this mean that environment X causes the 50 per cent to become 55 per cent?
David Gould said:As I said, most people are still stuck with the idea of punishment.
They are either deterrents or a means of making sure that the society recoups a certain amount of money in recompense for certain less harmful kinds of anti-social behaviour.
Again, our justice system is flawed because we have this notion of punishment. If you look at the recidivism rates, you will see that a few months in jail either deters a person from behaving the same way twice or it means that they are massively more likely to do it again - or even worse things.
If we got away from the notion of punishment, we could address this problem.
Lilly of the Valley said:The problem w/ this is that there is no responsibility on the person's part. If someon kills someone...it's not their fault...they didn't choose that, it was the environment and such...or genetics......Why should people get arrested then...it's not their fault...they didn't choose that course of action?
D McCloud said:Determinism doesn't mean that people don't have responsibilities, and we should let murders roam the streets. In fact, I would say it's more of a reason to put murders and people who are a severe danger to society in jail.
The reason we have a legal system is to protect people and their rights. As a society, we don't want to put people in jail, we need each other to survive. However, because because crimes happen that jeopardize our ability to survive as a society, we are forced to put people in jail(cause/effect).
Lilly of the Valley said:So people are in no way responsible for their actions?
Lilly of the Valley said:What do you mean?
Lilly of the Valley said:Yet, it says that our actions aren't chosen. If we don't choose an action...aren't we w/o responsiblity?
Exactly. Ultimately we aren't responsible for our actions.Lilly of the Valley said:So people are in no way responsible for their actions?
David Gould said:Without free will, responsibility has no meaning - in other words, it makes no sense to say, 'John is responsible for X'. Of course, as I do not think that 'John' exists - or Lilly of the Valley or me - exist in the way that is commonly thought, I think the notion of responsibility fails in other ways, too. But that is another discussion.
levi501 said:Exactly. Ultimately we aren't responsible for our actions.
Society however must protect itself. So despite it not being the criminal's fault, we must incarcerate him to protect the rest of us.
D McCloud said:I wouldn't necessarily say that.
It's hard to draw a distinction between what we can individually be held responsible for, and what we can't. In fact, I would say responsibility is more of a societal issue. People need others to survive, and therefore it's societies responsibility to make sure that people arn't disadvantaged in such a way that cause them to do things that hurt our ability to survive as a whole
Lilly of the Valley said:How can society have responsibility if the individual people that make society can't even chose what to do freely? Doesn't the environment determine this, since it is what is responsible for things anyway? The environment even determines society...does it not? So how can society then have control over it?
Lilly of the Valley said:But if there is no responsibility then aren't we just a bunch of robots doing the will of the environment?
And then comes the issue of how the environment came to decide all of this...was it just random?
levi501 said:I do believe in Determinism, but it's in spite of quantum physics. Logically it make sense that if the exact same variables are in place the exact same result should occur. So to me the hidden variable theory sounds plausible.
David Gould said:And, no, it was not random. The operations of the laws of physics/chemistry/biology are not random - when you drop a ball in a gravity well, it falls towards the centre of the gravity well, for instance. It does not move randomly.
t_w said:Many laws of chemistry are completely random.
David Gould said:They are? So when you add sodium to water you can get any particular result?
Or are you talking about quantum chemistry?
computationally and practically unpredictable.
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