Details in Exodus??

[PaulEdwardMorgan]

In Exodus chapters 19 - 23-ish, God spends a great deal of effort detailing all the rules and laws that man is supposed to live by. It all seems very pedantic. Why does God get into all the details of living in community? Why does He line out things like the following (chapter 22):

7 “If anyone gives a neighbor silver or goods for safekeeping and they are stolen from the neighbor’s house, the thief, if caught, must pay back double. 8 But if the thief is not found, the owner of the house must appear before the judges, and they must determine whether the owner of the house has laid hands on the other person’s property."

This just doesn't read like something God would deal with. It seems like something Moses would implement as a leader of the community.

 

[A_Thinker]

In Exodus chapters 19 - 23-ish, God spends a great deal of effort detailing all the rules and laws that man is supposed to live by. It all seems very pedantic. Why does God get into all the details of living in community? Why does He line out things like the following (chapter 22):

7 “If anyone gives a neighbor silver or goods for safekeeping and they are stolen from the neighbor’s house, the thief, if caught, must pay back double. 8 But if the thief is not found, the owner of the house must appear before the judges, and they must determine whether the owner of the house has laid hands on the other person’s property."

This just doesn't read like something God would deal with. It seems like something Moses would implement as a leader of the community.

It makes one think of Moses allowing divorce because of the hardness of men's hearts ....

 

[PaulEdwardMorgan]

Sorry, I'm not following. You're saying that you think the rules / laws maybe do come from Moses, and they support divorce? Where is that part? Sorry that I'm not following.

 

[A_Thinker]

Sorry, I'm not following. You're saying that you think the rules / laws maybe do come from Moses, and they support divorce? Where is that part? Sorry that I'm not following.

Well ... Jesus implies that MOSES allowed divorce.

Perhaps Moses defined the Law in other areas as well ...

Moses, no doubt, had to deal with such issues as the one you mentioned ...

 

[Kevin Snow]

In Exodus chapters 19 - 23-ish, God spends a great deal of effort detailing all the rules and laws that man is supposed to live by. It all seems very pedantic. Why does God get into all the details of living in community? Why does He line out things like the following (chapter 22):

7 “If anyone gives a neighbor silver or goods for safekeeping and they are stolen from the neighbor’s house, the thief, if caught, must pay back double. 8 But if the thief is not found, the owner of the house must appear before the judges, and they must determine whether the owner of the house has laid hands on the other person’s property."

This just doesn't read like something God would deal with. It seems like something Moses would implement as a leader of the community.

Your humanistic modern view misses the apparent reality that you are wrong about who God is. And this scripture is simply evidence to the contrary for your view.

 

[PaulEdwardMorgan]

Interesting. I definitely struggled when reading it (particularly as a relatively new Christian) and seeing God as the source that someone was quoting. But all my Christian friends believe emphatically that it was God. There is no real discussion about it not being God, but rather Moses utilizing his known connection with God to convince his followers to follow a set of rules (to ensure an orderly life). But I never read or hear that possibility. It is usually dismissed out of hand as "heresy".

 

[Kevin Snow]

Interesting. I definitely struggled when reading it (particularly as a relatively new Christian) and seeing God as the source that someone was quoting. But all my Christian friends believe emphatically that it was God. There is no real discussion about it not being God, but rather Moses utilizing his known connection with God to convince his followers to follow a set of rules (to ensure an orderly life). But I never read or hear that possibility. It is usually dismissed out of hand as "heresy".

What you are seeing is a very real thing. When God entrusts his authority to someone, he truly trusts THEM with that authority. Everything he does is true.

 

[PaulEdwardMorgan]

Your humanistic modern view misses the apparent reality that you are wrong about who God is. And this scripture is simply evidence to the contrary for your view.

Maybe that's the answer. I'm not seeing where I posted anything about who I think God is, but I can follow the idea that I may be swayed by my current environment. And I admit that I am definitely doing everything I can to learn more about who God is. That's why I joined this community.

 

[Kevin Snow]

Maybe that's the answer. I'm not seeing where I posted anything about who I think God is, but I can follow the idea that I may be swayed by my current environment. And I admit that I am definitely doing everything I can to learn more about who God is. That's why I joined this community.

Good! Amen brother.

 

[dqhall]

In Exodus chapters 19 - 23-ish, God spends a great deal of effort detailing all the rules and laws that man is supposed to live by. It all seems very pedantic. Why does God get into all the details of living in community? Why does He line out things like the following (chapter 22):

7 “If anyone gives a neighbor silver or goods for safekeeping and they are stolen from the neighbor’s house, the thief, if caught, must pay back double. 8 But if the thief is not found, the owner of the house must appear before the judges, and they must determine whether the owner of the house has laid hands on the other person’s property."

This just doesn't read like something God would deal with. It seems like something Moses would implement as a leader of the community.

Exodus 22 (WEB) lays down a detailed law against theft:
1 “If a man steals an ox or a sheep, and kills it, or sells it; he shall pay five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep. 2 If the thief is found breaking in, and is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt of bloodshed for him. 3 If the sun has risen on him, guilt of bloodshed shall be for him; he shall make restitution. If he has nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft. 4 If the stolen property is found in his hand alive, whether it is ox, donkey, or sheep, he shall pay double.

Some civilizations executed thieves. You may remember the Romans crucified two thieves next to Jesus. Islam cut a hand off of a thief. The Jews required repayment of 2-5 times the value of the stolen property or to enslave a thief if he/she had no money. God worked with Israel in spite of their imperfections as others were worse. To make a poor man a slave for life over the theft of a few figs does not seem right. Jesus asked us to forgive people.

Jesus reiterated a commandment against stealing (Mark 10:19).

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

In Exodus chapters 19 - 23-ish, God spends a great deal of effort detailing all the rules and laws that man is supposed to live by. It all seems very pedantic. Why does God get into all the details of living in community? Why does He line out things like the following (chapter 22):

7 “If anyone gives a neighbor silver or goods for safekeeping and they are stolen from the neighbor’s house, the thief, if caught, must pay back double. 8 But if the thief is not found, the owner of the house must appear before the judges, and they must determine whether the owner of the house has laid hands on the other person’s property."

This just doesn't read like something God would deal with. It seems like something Moses would implement as a leader of the community.

Yahweh says somewhere in His Word that His people are separate and different and blessed from all the other nations -
no other nation did Yahweh talk to or give TORAH to, nor care for as He did Israel.

All the rules of TORAH are Yahweh's Perfect Rules/ Instructions given to Moses by Yahweh, for Yahweh's people,
setting His people apart from all other people/nations/tribes on earth -
all the gentile nations/peoples were without God and without hope in the world.

 

[dqhall]

Yahweh says somewhere in His Word that His people are separate and different and blessed from all the other nations -
no other nation did Yahweh talk to or give TORAH to, nor care for as He did Israel.

All the rules of TORAH are Yahweh's Perfect Rules/ Instructions given to Moses by Yahweh, for Yahweh's people,
setting His people apart from all other people/nations/tribes on earth -
all the gentile nations/peoples were without God and without hope in the world.

If all these rules of the Torah are perfect, why can't you start sacrificing animals for Yahweh?

 

[PaulEdwardMorgan]

If all these rules of the Torah are perfect, why can't you start sacrificing animals for Yahweh?

I am Christian (not Jewish), so I believe that Jesus was the perfect sacrifice, and the laws around animal sacrifices are no longer required. I am uneducated in how the Jewish faith reconciles the laws of the Torah with practices in current Judaism. I would be fascinated to learn.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If all these rules of the Torah are perfect, why can't you start sacrificing animals for Yahweh?

What is the purpose of sacrifice in TORAH that you are referring to ?

For sin ?

One sacrifice for all time was accomplished in Yahshua HaMashiach(Jesus) as required by TORAH. To try to do something more, something else "added" to the crucifixion (as if possible) , would be denying Jesus and showing no faith in His accomplished work.

 

[PaulEdwardMorgan]

What is the purpose of sacrifice in TORAH that you are referring to ?

For sin ?

One sacrifice for all time was accomplished in Yahshua HaMashiach(Jesus) as required by TORAH. To try to do something more, something else "added" to the crucifixion (as if possible) , would be denying Jesus and showing no faith in His accomplished work.

Seems like you and I are both following the same faith. What I was trying to convey was that because Judaism does not teach that Jesus is the Messiah (they are still waiting), I don't know how current Jews reconcile what used to be required in the Torah (animal sacrifice) with modern day actions. I don't see people (or hear of them) sacrificing animals, but maybe I just don't see it. But if that does not happen, how do modern day Jews deal with sin?

 

[dqhall]

I am Christian (not Jewish), so I believe that Jesus was the perfect sacrifice, and the laws around animal sacrifices are no longer required. I am uneducated in how the Jewish faith reconciles the laws of the Torah with practices in current Judaism. I would be fascinated to learn.

The Orthodox Jews have an entire commentary on how to obey the Torah in the Talmudic tractates/volumes/mishna. They are not allowed to turn on a light switch during the Sabbath, drive a car during the Sabbath with at least 29 types of work that are not allowed that may be split into subcategories. Their dietary laws are strict. They will not eat things that are not Kosher. Some go so far as to proclaim a woman is unclean by nature of her period for seven days when her period starts as Moses ordered and may quarantine her. One Orthodox Union has a catalog of mikveh cleansing pool locations. The commentary Niddah describes some of this. They also have holy days. I was in Jerusalem during Rosh Hashana one year. That is their secular new year. Typically they blow ram's horn trumpets called shofars during Rosh Hashana. That year Rosh Hashana was on Shabaht/Sabbath thus the blowing of the shofars was forbidden as it is work.

There are Jews who are reformed and are less legalistic and only observe part of the law.

There are Jews who practice Christianity and do not keep the Sabbath. The Jews do not consider these to be Jews in terms of their religion. They are apostates and shunned. Since Jewishness is not only a religion, but an ethnicity, one may also find Jewish agnostics or atheists.

 

[PaulEdwardMorgan]

The Orthodox Jews have an entire commentary on how to obey the Torah in the Talmudic tractates/volumes/mishna. They are not allowed to turn on a light switch during the Sabbath, drive a car during the Sabbath with at least 29 types of work that are not allowed that may be split into subcategories. Their dietary laws are strict. They will not eat things that are not Kosher. Some go so far as to proclaim a woman is unclean by nature of her period for seven days when her period starts as Moses ordered and may quarantine her. One Orthodox Union has a catalog of mikveh cleansing pool locations. The commentary Niddah describes some of this. They also have holy days. I was in Jerusalem during Rosh Hashana one year. That is their secular new year. Typically they blow ram's horn trumpets called shofars during Rosh Hashana. That year Rosh Hashana was on Shabaht/Sabbath thus the blowing of the shofars was forbidden as it is work.

There are Jews who are reformed and are less legalistic and only observe part of the law.

There are Jews who practice Christianity and do not keep the Sabbath. The Jews do not consider these to be Jews in terms of their religion. They are apostates and shunned. Since Jewishness is not only a religion, but an ethnicity, one may also find Jewish agnostics or atheists.

Wow! You know a lot about Judaism. Thank you for writing all this. Fascinating how they define "work"! I will go google some of what you wrote to see how they deal with falling short of the law (missing the mark, as it were). I don't know of animal sacrifices, so there must be something they do to reconcile with God (since they do not believe that Jesus was the perfect sacrifice for all time).

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Seems like you and I are both following the same faith. What I was trying to convey was that because Judaism does not teach that Jesus is the Messiah (they are still waiting), I don't know how current Jews reconcile what used to be required in the Torah (animal sacrifice) with modern day actions. I don't see people (or hear of them) sacrificing animals, but maybe I just don't see it. But if that does not happen, how do modern day Jews deal with sin?

How does anyone deal with sin today ? (hint: they don't, according to Scripture )

Since there is only one way to ABBA YAHWEH, through the BLOOD OF JESUS,

all the other "ways" in the world, no matter who, don't work.

Staying in Yahweh's Word, set apart by Yahweh's Word,
as
Jesus Says: kept from the power of the devil by Yahweh's Word,

is the Way of Life today, the way to live in Jesus.

 

[dqhall]

Wow! You know a lot about Judaism. Thank you for writing all this. Fascinating how they define "work"! I will go google some of what you wrote to see how they deal with falling short of the law (missing the mark, as it were). I don't know of animal sacrifices, so there must be something they do to reconcile with God (since they do not believe that Jesus was the perfect sacrifice for all time).

The Orthodox know they are not allowed to sacrifice except in the temple in Jerusalem. This was part of the reforms of King Hezekiah who banned the use of sacrificial altars outside of Jerusalem. A dismantled horned altar was found by archaeologists in Beersheva/Beersheeba from the time of Hezekiah. The Muslims have the Dome of the Rock at the site of the old Jewish temple. There are people who want to rebuild the temple on that site and start up the sacrifices, but they have been prevented from doing so.

There are also Jews who do not believe some of these Torah commandments are necessary. They call themselves reformed. I had a Jewish friend who knew the Jewish laws and traditions well. He knew how to behave in the presence of Orthodox Jews. When he was apart from them he was able to drive on the Sabbath and eat calamari in a Chinese restaurant.

 

[Halbhh]

In Exodus chapters 19 - 23-ish, God spends a great deal of effort detailing all the rules and laws that man is supposed to live by. It all seems very pedantic. Why does God get into all the details of living in community? Why does He line out things like the following (chapter 22):

7 “If anyone gives a neighbor silver or goods for safekeeping and they are stolen from the neighbor’s house, the thief, if caught, must pay back double. 8 But if the thief is not found, the owner of the house must appear before the judges, and they must determine whether the owner of the house has laid hands on the other person’s property."

This just doesn't read like something God would deal with. It seems like something Moses would implement as a leader of the community.

Having already failed to follow spirit of the law, likely breaking the golden rule hundreds of different ways, and even showing themselves not to have faith broadly despite miracles, and more than once, it seems Israel at that time needed micro detailed laws. It's like how for a toddler, you have to get specific and give them little detailed rules at times.