Dependence on God

[Bluelion]

I hear many people talk about free will. The liberals shout free will from the mountain tops. I think what people fail to see is we do not have many acts of free will. Adam was give two things. The free will to name The animals and that is what they would be called. That was given to Adam in Eden. Second Adam was given free will to choose good or evil. To obey God or eat the fruit to sin. God was not done with us and kept this choice for every individual man and woman. Able and cain both had this choice. Able chose God and found favor, cain chose evil and was cast out even further. So we to have a choice God or default satan, if a person makes no choice it is still a choice satan is default. Once a person chooses God the goal for that person is to lay down there will and take up God will. Like Jesus said His will is only to do The Fathers will. That is the goal. If satan is the choice the person becomes little more than a puppet thinking they have free will while the are a slave.

Paul said He was a slave to God, why. Because he was saved he could not reject God he already chose. The Bible speaks of this as crucifying Christ over again. If a person could reject God after being saved this would say Jesus died in vain for them. Now I know my Father better than that. He would not let His Beloved Son die in vain. also Jesus said this about losing His children

John 6:37-40 NLT
37 However, those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them. 38 For I have come down from heaven to do the will of God who sent me, not to do my own will. 39 And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day. 40 For it is my Father’s will that all who see his Son and believe in him should have eternal life. I will raise them up at the last day.”

So Jesus says he will never reject those that come to him, never. and also It is The Fathers will he not lose one child, and we know Jesus always does The Fathers will, So Jesus can not loses any of His children.

So after a person is saved what free will do they have? To sin, is to fall to temptation. You do not have the free will to reject God any more, if you are truly saved so what free will do you have?

Personally i don't have free will nor do I wanted it. What would a person do with free will any way being on the choice of who will rule you? Adam had free will in Eden and look where it got him. I don't know if you have ever experience a call from God. I was called to ministry. i was a Human Service major at the time. i was planning to get my degree as a counselor however, I could do nothing else. This burning started in my heart it did not stop untill I start my first class towards ministry. Now i love God and i found i love nothing more than learning and talking about God, but I could not say no. I learned what Paul meant when he said slave to God. I am happy and thankful to be a slave. A most unworthy slave, yes, but a slave of God's nonetheless.

So why is it people scream free will. Free will to do what? Free will to choose to obey God or not? That just means you still have not made a choice in the first place. You have not committed to Jesus, so that person is unsaved. It is one choice not many to obey God. Once you choose Ok it is His way, thank God for that.

The 66 Book of the Bible show are dependence on God for everything. The OT was all about people trying to do it there way only to mess it up and God having to come in and fix it. From Abraham telling pharaoh his wife was his sister. Abraham thought he would be killed and they would just take her she was so beautiful. He lost faith for God to protect him and tried to do it on his own. So God had to plague Pharaoh to get Abraham's wife back. The OT is full of stories like this, why did God let it happen to show us our complete 100% dependence on him. We are infants in God's arms, we can do nothing on our own. We do nothing God works through us, God changes us, God provides for us. We did not even pay our own debt of sin. Jesus paid that. When you realize that you have made a good start to laying down your will and taking up God's.

Some people have trouble with this They say But I do this, I do that, I I I. It is pride.Some people think they earned their money built their empire. But it was God. Money can be lost easily. People say why I control this or that, really what does any person control in this world? Control is an illusion conceived by men to feel safe. Empires rise and fall all the time. The OT shows us God control how long they would last, and how they came to power.

We are dependent 100% on God. We do not have free will once we make the choice of who to be ruled by.

Just what I have learned any way.
thanks for letting me share, and no I am not a Calvinist if you were wondering.

Peace and Love
blu

 

[All Souls]

I think what people fail to see is we do not have many acts of free will.

...

Personally i don't have free will nor do I wanted it.

You sort of contradict yourself here, first you say that we do not have many acts of free will which implies that we do have free will, then you go on to deny that you have it. Moreover, you imply that you could have it if you wanted it. So are you freely exercising your will not to have free will?

 

[Skala]

Free will is simply choosing what you desire

But your desires are determined by your nature

For example, the fallen unregenerate man is hostile to Christ, thus chooses accordingly

The regenerate person is spiritually alive and no longer hostile to Christ, but can now understand spiritual things (the things of God are spiritually discerned), thus chooses accordingly.

 

[Bluelion]

You sort of contradict yourself here, first you say that we do not have many acts of free will which implies that we do have free will, then you go on to deny that you have it. Moreover, you imply that you could have it if you wanted it. So are you freely exercising your will not to have free will?

It does not contradict when you put it in context. I said we have free will to choose who to be ruled by, and said we do not have many acts of free will. That contradicts how? I also said once we made are choice we no longer have free will. Then I said I do not have free will nor do I want it because I have made my choice.

I fail to see your point when you put it in context with everything I said.

 

[Bluelion]

Free will is simply choosing what you desire

But your desires are determined by your nature

For example, the fallen unregenerate man is hostile to Christ, thus chooses accordingly

The regenerate person is spiritually alive and no longer hostile to Christ, but can now understand spiritual things (the things of God are spiritually discerned), thus chooses accordingly.

Are you suggesting after choosing God we can then reject him? You are talking about choosing to obey or not to. Because a person falls to sin does that mean it was there choice, they gave in to temptation. Paul spoke of doing what he hated, doesn't sound like a choice. Paul said before a person was saved they had to obey there flesh but now we have been reborn we have a spiritual side, and can but the flesh to death.

Seems to me the only choice there is is God or keep on obeying the flesh.

 

[All Souls]

Then I said I do not have free will nor do I want it because I have made my choice.

So you freely chose not to have free will, can you now choose to have free will?

 

[godenver1]

Because a person falls to sin does that mean it was there choice, they gave in to temptation

interesting, BL. I haven't heard this before I don't think.

Serious question, would David of had a choice to not commit adultery and then murder Uriah?

 

[Bluelion]

So you freely chose not to have free will, can you now choose to have free will?

I gave up my free will when i made my choice to serve God, no I can not say oh on second thought I don't want to. already address that that would be crucifying Christ over again, having him die in vain, and God loses one of his children as I have already posted the verses against this.

 

[Bluelion]

interesting, BL. I haven't heard this before I don't think.

Serious question, would David of had a choice to not commit adultery and then murder Uriah?

David was saved he fell to temptation, but it was not his spirit side which gave in but he gave in to flesh. Let me ask you did he willfully sin then? If a person falls to temptation did they then make a choice to sin.? What if they had never been tempted would they still have committed the sin? Do you think king David will be found guilty?

When we have our new bodies we sin no more. There is not temptation any more. Paul said if I do what i hate then it is not me doing it but sin living inside me. What do you say to that?

 

[godenver1]

Theres some good points there BL and some things for me to think about. If he had not seen Bathsheba bathing then perhaps he wouldn't of committed adultery. But doesn't the Bible say we can escape temptation in 1 Corinthians 10:13? If we can't be tried beyond what we can bear, then didn't David then chose to give in, when it was possible he couldn't?

Remember in 1 Samuel 25 when David was going to kill Nabal and his men? He got halfway there and Abigail convinced David to change his mind.

 

[now faith]

David was saved he fell to temptation, but it was not his spirit side which gave in but he gave in to flesh. Let me ask you did he willfully sin then? If a person falls to temptation did they then make a choice to sin.? What if they had never been tempted would they still have committed the sin? Do you think king David will be found guilty?

When we have our new bodies we sin no more. There is not temptation any more. Paul said if I do what i hate then it is not me doing it but sin living inside me. What do you say to that?

King David,looked up on flesh,he desired it,he attained it,conspired to prevent being exposed
To the point of murder.

He repented,suffered much from his action but in the end all was restored.

We serve a merciful God.

 

[now faith]

Free will is simply choosing what you desire

But your desires are determined by your nature

For example, the fallen unregenerate man is hostile to Christ, thus chooses accordingly

The regenerate person is spiritually alive and no longer hostile to Christ, but can now understand spiritual things (the things of God are spiritually discerned), thus chooses accordingly.

I like that statement.

Have you studied on the idea the human heart has a mind of its own?

Apparently the hearts magnetic field is 50 times stronger than the brain.

Notice how many statements in the Bible refer to the heart.

There have been case studies of heart transplant patients adopting the mannerisms of the donor.

 

[Bluelion]

Theres some good points there BL and some things for me to think about. If he had not seen Bathsheba bathing then perhaps he wouldn't of committed adultery. But doesn't the Bible say we can escape temptation in 1 Corinthians 10:13? If we can't be tried beyond what we can bear, then didn't David then chose to give in, when it was possible he couldn't?

Remember in 1 Samuel 25 when David was going to kill Nabal and his men? He got halfway there and Abigail convinced David to change his mind.

God stopped David so did David have free will he was going to kill the man however God stop him.

People don't always see the way out, but if they hate the sin and do it any way is it them or sin living in side them as Paul said? I think this answers also why Good people do bad things.

Children of sin as the Bible says can not sleep with out sinning for the day. They have to obey there flesh there is no fighting it. I fail to see where a person has a lot of choice beyond that first choice given to Adam in Eden. Either chose God as Lord and he will keep you or chose satan and you are his slave.

Are you seeing something I am not?

 

[jimbattle]

2Ch 16:8 Were not the Ethiopians and the Lubims a huge host, with very many chariots and horsemen? yet, because thou didst rely on the LORD, he delivered them into thine hand.

 

[least]

I believe that God has saved us from the power of sin and equips us with what we need in order to do what is right. However, with the empowerment comes a free will to obey, or shamefully to do what is wrong. This is why Paul encourages us time and again to "be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect" (Rom. 12:2). In Philippians 1:9-11, he prays that their "love may abound more and more, with knowledge and all discernment, so that you may approve what is excellent, and so be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God." Why this focus on growing in knowledge and discernment? So that we may know God's will and make good decisions that will lead to his glory. That is not to say that he will never prevent us from making some atrocious decision--I believe that sometimes he does intervene. But that is the exception rather than the norm. However, when we choose to do what is contrary to his will, he continues to offer forgiveness when we repent (1 John 1:9).

 

[Bluelion]

Let me ask can a person reject God after being saved?

and If not what is our free will? Free will to sin, but our new spiritual side hates sin however, are flesh loves sin. So we are told to put our flesh to death. No child of God gets saved and then goes on sinning wildly.

Are we not to lay down our will and take up God's. isn't the Goal to be like Jesus, as much as we can, and have our will to only do The Fathers Will. So it seems the idea of free will after a person is saved is counter productive.

If you say we can reject God after save that is another discussion, but if you say we can't, we no longer have free will to choose evil. We have chosen Good. We can not be rejected as Jesus says. i agree we do still sin, but I think it is more of stumbling in our journey than choosing to stop walking and sit down. If a person stumbles and falls did he chose to fall? Our spiritual nature will never chose sin. So if we fall to temptation did we chose it or did we stumble?

Sorry trying to explain this when I am not 100%. Do you see what I am talking about though?

I am in no way saying a person is not responsible for their sin, they need forgiveness, and I can see how some would fear this thinking. With the thought that people would sin wildly and say its not my fault, but that is not what I am saying, and A child of God can not sin wildly for any period of time.

David stumbled is how I see it, not chose to sin. i don't believe he thought this is going against God and guess what I don't care, i think he was in lust and could not see God's will with Beshaba. He did not think, his flesh took over, and did not think about untill the prophet came to him and told him a story, and The Holy Spirit convicted him. He was blind untill God open his eyes.

 

[All Souls]

I gave up my free will when i made my choice to serve God, no I can not say oh on second thought I don't want to.

Do you still sin? Are they made by choice (i.e. with your will) or under compulsion from outside?

 

[All Souls]

Let me ask can a person reject God after being saved?

Yes, see Heb. 6.

 

[least]

First let me say that I believe as Christians, we are completely free from the power of sin. But that does not mean we are yet free from the influence of it. Even Paul struggled with sin (Rom. 7:14-25). And John struggled as well (1 John 1:9, note the “we” and the “our”). So did Peter (Gal. 2:11-13). The truth is we all do, and I know you will agree to that. But the question is, “Do we choose to sin?” The way I see it is, yes, we choose to sin. This does not mean we reject God, or despise the work of Christ; it does mean that we can become weak in our faith and become easily influenced by our sin nature.
This is what Paul was talking about to the Romans (7:14-25). We know that God’s way is right—but we are “of the flesh.” “Nothing good dwells in me.” We may have the “desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.” This is what Paul is calling the flesh, or the sinful nature. We often choose to sin because we give in to our sinful nature. This causes great frustration in my life, sometimes to the point that I just want to raise the white flag and walk away. But you know what? I can’t do that, because when I start walking away I find that God is still with me! You see, while my flesh is still present with me, I find that God’s Spirit is with me all the more. And I believe this is what Paul is saying he experienced. And so we say with him, “Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!” (v24-25).
Second, I believe that every person has been created to live eternally. Each person will either place their trust in God through Christ and be with the Lord forever or they will reject God’s grace and be separated from God forever. John 3:16 says, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” Romans 6:23 says similarly, “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” My point here is that God’s promise for those who believe is eternal, which stresses the unchanging quality of his gift. It is much like the covenant that he made with Abraham, which, by the way, had nothing to do with Abraham’s ability to obey God (Gen. 12:11-20). However, he did believe God’s word and it was credited to him for righteousness (Rom. 4:3).
What about Christians who walk away from the faith? Because of what I have said above, I don’t believe that a true Christian will ever walk away from God. We may feel like giving up, but when we look around and consider our options, I believe we realize we have no better place to go but to Jesus, who has the words of eternal life (John 6:68). Therefore, we repent and confess our sins “and he is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9). What can I say about those who do participate so faithfully for a time and then forsake Christ and walk away? That does happen and I cannot deny that. But what does the Lord say? “For each tree is known by its fruit. For figs are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush” (Luke 6:44). Many people walk away from fellowship because they never had faith in the first place. And while I see All Souls point about Hebrews 6:4-8, I also read of my point in verses 13-20. I interpret the former to mean those who were never really saved and the latter to those who are true believers.

 

[Bluelion]

First let me say that I believe as Christians, we are completely free from the power of sin. But that does not mean we are yet free from the influence of it. Even Paul struggled with sin (Rom. 7:14-25). And John struggled as well (1 John 1:9, note the “we” and the “our”). So did Peter (Gal. 2:11-13). The truth is we all do, and I know you will agree to that. But the question is, “Do we choose to sin?” The way I see it is, yes, we choose to sin. This does not mean we reject God, or despise the work of Christ; it does mean that we can become weak in our faith and become easily influenced by our sin nature.
This is what Paul was talking about to the Romans (7:14-25). We know that God’s way is right—but we are “of the flesh.” “Nothing good dwells in me.” We may have the “desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.” This is what Paul is calling the flesh, or the sinful nature. We often choose to sin because we give in to our sinful nature. This causes great frustration in my life, sometimes to the point that I just want to raise the white flag and walk away. But you know what? I can’t do that, because when I start walking away I find that God is still with me! You see, while my flesh is still present with me, I find that God’s Spirit is with me all the more. And I believe this is what Paul is saying he experienced. And so we say with him, “Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!” (v24-25).
Second, I believe that every person has been created to live eternally. Each person will either place their trust in God through Christ and be with the Lord forever or they will reject God’s grace and be separated from God forever. John 3:16 says, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” Romans 6:23 says similarly, “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” My point here is that God’s promise for those who believe is eternal, which stresses the unchanging quality of his gift. It is much like the covenant that he made with Abraham, which, by the way, had nothing to do with Abraham’s ability to obey God (Gen. 12:11-20). However, he did believe God’s word and it was credited to him for righteousness (Rom. 4:3).
What about Christians who walk away from the faith? Because of what I have said above, I don’t believe that a true Christian will ever walk away from God. We may feel like giving up, but when we look around and consider our options, I believe we realize we have no better place to go but to Jesus, who has the words of eternal life (John 6:68). Therefore, we repent and confess our sins “and he is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9). What can I say about those who do participate so faithfully for a time and then forsake Christ and walk away? That does happen and I cannot deny that. But what does the Lord say? “For each tree is known by its fruit. For figs are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush” (Luke 6:44). Many people walk away from fellowship because they never had faith in the first place. And while I see All Souls point about Hebrews 6:4-8, I also read of my point in verses 13-20. I interpret the former to mean those who were never really saved and the latter to those who are true believers.

You state your position very well, of course i did not know if we were in agreement about my question or not until the very end lol.

I see your position and we disagree about a choice. my main thought is where Paul says if i do what I hate is it me doing it no but it is sin living in me. If we willing sin nothing would change in our new bodies as we already allow sin even want it, but if we sin because our flesh in our new bodies we would no longer sin because we don't want it in our lives. so i guess we disagree which is ok. I just take it as could not explain what I was seeing, maybe I will get better, or maybe you saw and just disagreed, either way its ok.

Now allsouls every one screams Hebrew 6 and ignore this passage.

John 6:37-40 NLT
37 However, those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them. 38 For I have come down from heaven to do the will of God who sent me, not to do my own will. 39 And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day. 40 For it is my Father’s will that all who see his Son and believe in him should have eternal life. I will raise them up at the last day.”


Jesus clearly says he does not loses His children and He will never reject them. But some walk away from faith and the Bible tells us why.
1john 2:19 NLT
19 These people left our churches, but they never really belonged with us; otherwise they would have stayed with us. When they left, it proved that they did not belong with us.

People say Hebrews 6 but forget scripture does not conflict with each other or else it would not have been allowed in the Bible in the first place. so Hebrews 6 and John 6 can not conflict, so there for Hebrew 6 does not mean people lose salvation. It is however speaking of a person who see the Truth that Jesus is the way such as judas did and then turn away with out accepting it. Those people it says can never be brought back.