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Incariol

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I am curious as to whether you think it was right or wrong for the Roman Catholic Church in the past to try and stop people translating the Bible into English (or their native language) and why?

Because that first attempt was ridiculously full of errors that would lead to heresy. They were correct to suppress it.
 
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LOCO

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I am curious as to whether you think it was right or wrong for the Roman Catholic Church in the past to try and stop people translating the Bible into English (or their native language) and why?


As the others have correctly pointed out some of the reasons why they tried to stop it.

Another reason is that from the time of the Apostles, the Church elders had always interpreted Scripture, defined doctrine and then taught the masses lest they fall into 'false doctrines' and get misled by 'false prophets'.

I guess it was a lame attempt to prevent what is happening in Christianity right now, where we have thousands of 'churches' and 'individuals' who claim to know what the Bible meant. All with their own unique, sometimes similar, but often conflicting interpretations. Yet all claim the Holy Spirit is leading them in their interpretation. Who exactly is the Holy Spirit guiding? All of them, I don't think that is the case.

The Holy Spirit can never be the author of chaos or confusion.


:crossrc:
 
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Paul.

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Actually, the Roman Catholic Church allowed at least portions to be translated into the local vernacular back in the Middle Ages.
Where does your information come from that leads you to believe this?
 
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MrPolo

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Where does your information come from that leads you to believe this?
The below is compiled by yours-truly. :) So nobody try to dismiss it by calling it a cut-and-paste. :)



In 894 A.D., King Alfred sponsored an extensive clergy education project. There was an emphasis in learning Latin, which made clergy capable of translating the Latin Bible into English. These translations were done with the blessing of Pope Gregory who was an advocate of lay Bible knowledge. (The English Bible Before Wycliffe, Yahoo Associated Content, Nov. 13 2008, The English Bible Before Wycliffe - Associated Content from Yahoo! - associatedcontent.com)

[T]he [Anglo-Saxon Bible Fragment of the Late Eighth Century, aka 1 E. VI] is examined, its identification with the supposed Gregorian Bible seen by Thomas of Elmham at Canturbury in the late Middle Ages is re-established, and the credentials of its splendid purple leaves to be part of the original codes are accepted; and, whilst an examination of its script and capitals places 1 E. VI in the setting of late eighth-century southern England, certain features of the manuscript -- the purple leaves, their gold and silver capitals, the cycle of pictures implied by the leaves, the very contents of the volume itself -- are studied and explained as reminiscences of an earlier late-antique exemplar, as throwbacks to traits possibly present in some late-antique Bible. (McGurk, Patrick, Journal of the Warburg and Courtauld Institutes, Vol. 25, No. 1/2 (Jan.-Jun., 1962), pp 18ff, JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie)

Yet we may safely assert, and we can prove, that there were actually in existence among the people many copies of the Scriptures in the English tongue of that day. To begin far back, we have a copy of the work of Caedmon, a monk of Whitby, in the end of the seventh century, consisting of great portions of the Bible in the common tongue. In the next century we have the well-known translations of Venerable Bede, a monk of Jarrow, who died whilst busy with the Gospel of St. John. In the same (eighth) century we have the copies of Eadhelm, Bishop of Sherborne; of Guthlac, a hermit near Peterborough; and of Egbert, Bishop of Holy Island; these were all in Saxon, the language understood and spoken by the Christians of that time. Coming down a little later, we have the free translations of King Alfred the Great who was working at the Psalms when he died, and of Aelfric, Archbishop of Canterbury; as well as popular renderings of Holy Scripture like the Book of Durham, and the Rushworth Gloss and others that have survived the wreck of ages. After the Norman conquest in 1066, Anglo-Norman or Middle-English became the language of England, and consequently the next translations of the Bible we meet with are in that tongue. There are several specimens still known, such as the paraphrase of Orm (about 1150) and the Salus Animae (1050), the translations of William Shoreham and Richard Rolle, hermit of Hampole (died 1349). I say advisedly 'specimens' for those that have come down to us are merely indications of a much greater number that once existed, but afterwards perished. We have proof of this in the words of Blessed Thomas More, Lord Chancellor of England under Henry VIII who says: 'The whole Bible long before Wycliff's day was by virtuous and well-learned men translated into the English tongue, and by good and godly people with devotion and soberness well and reverently read' (Dialogues III). Again, 'The clergy keep no Bibles from the laity but such translations as be either not yet approved for good, or such as be already reproved for naught (i.e., bad, naughty) as Wycliff's was. For, as for old ones that were before Wycliff's days, they remain lawful and be in some folks' hand. I myself have seen, and can show you, Bibles, fair and old which have been known and seen by the Bishop of the Diocese, and left in laymen's hands and women's too, such as he knew for good and Catholic folk, that used them with soberness and devotion.' (2) But you will say, that is the witness of a Roman Catholic. Well, I shall advance Protestant testimony also.

The translators of the Authorised Version, in their 'Preface', referring to previous translations of the Scriptures into the language of the people, make the following important statements. After speaking of the Greek and Latin Versions, they proceed:

'The godly-learned were not content to have the Scriptures in the language which themselves understood, Greek and Latin ... but also for the behoof and edifying of the unlearned which hungered and thirsted after righteousness, and had souls to be saved as well as they, they provided translations into the Vulgar for their countrymen, insomuch that most nations under Heaven did shortly after their conversion hear Christ speaking unto them in their Mother tongue, not by the voice of their minister only but also by the written word translated.'

Now, as all these nations were certainly converted by the Roman Catholic Church, for there was then no other to send missionaries to convert anybody, this is really a valuable admission. The Translators of 1611, then, after enumerating many converted nations that had the Vernacular Scriptures, come to the case of England, and include it among the others. 'Much about that time,' they say (1360), even in our King Richard the Second's days, John Trevisa translated them into English, and many English Bibles in written hand are yet to be seen that divers translated, as it is very probable, in that age . ... So that, to have the Scriptures in the mother tongue is not a quaint conceit lately taken up, either by the Lord Cromwell in England [or others] ... but hath been thought upon, and put in practice of old, even from the first times of the conversion of any nation.'

This testimony, from the Preface, (too little known) of their own Authorised Bible, ought surely to carry some weight with well disposed Protestants.

Moreover, the 'Reformed' Archbishop of Canterbury, Cranmer, says, in his preface to the Bible of 1540: 'The Holy Bible was translated and read in the Saxon tongue, which at that time was our mother tongue, whereof there remaineth yet divers copies found in old Abbeys, of such antique manner of writing and speaking that few men now be able to read and understand them. And when this language waxed old and out of common use, because folks should not lack the fruit of reading, it was again translated into the newer language, whereof yet also many copies remain and be daily found.' Again, Foxe, a man that Protestants trust, says: 'If histories be well examined, we shall find, both before the Conquest and after, as well before John Wycliff was born as since, the whole body of Scripture by sundry men translated into our country tongue.' 'But as of the earlier period, so of this, there are none but fragmentary remains, the "many copies" which remained when Cranmer wrote in 1540 having doubtless disappeared in the vast and ruthless destruction of libraries which took place within a few years after that date.' These last words are from the pen of Rev. J. H. Blunt, a Protestant author, in his History of the English Bible; and another Anglican dignitary, Dean Hook, tells us that 'long before Wycliff's time there had been translators of Holy Writ.' One more authority on the Protestant side, and I have done: it is Mr. Karl Pearson (Academy, August, 1885), who says: 'The Catholic Church has quite enough to answer for, but in the 15th century it certainly did not hold back the Bible from the folk: and it gave them in the vernacular (i.e. their own tongue) a long series of devotional works which for language and religious sentiment have never been surpassed. Indeed, we are inclined to think it made a mistake in allowing the masses such ready access to the Bible. It ought to have recognised the Bible once for all as a work absolutely unintelligible without a long course of historical study, and, so far as it was supposed to be inspired, very dangerous in the hands of the ignorant.' We do not know what Mr. Pearson's religious standpoint may have been, but he goes too far in blaming the Church for throwing the Bible open to the people in the 15th century, or indeed in any previous age. No evil results whatsoever followed the reading of that precious volume in any century preceding the 16th, because the people had the Catholic Church to lead them and guide them and teach them the meaning of it. It was only when the principle of 'Private judgment' was proclaimed that the Book became 'dangerous' and 'unintelligible', as it is still to the multitudes who will not receive the true interpretation of it at the hands of the Catholic Church, and who are about as competent to understand and explain it by themselves as they are to explain or prophesy the movements of the heavenly bodies.

(3) There is no need, it seems to me, to waste further time and space in accumulating proofs that the Bible was known, read and distributed by the Catholic Church in the common language of the people in all countries from the 7th down to the 14th century. I have paid more attention to the case of England because of the popularity of the myth about Wycliff having been the first to translate it, and to enable the poor blinded Papists, for the first time in their experience, to behold the Figure of the Christ of the Gospels in 1382. Such a grotesque notion can only be due either to ignorance or concealment of the now well-known facts of history. One would fain hope that, in this age of enlightenment and study, no one valuing his scholarship will so far imperil it as to attempt to revive the silly fable. But supposing it were as true as it is false, that John Wycliff was the first to publish the Bible in English, how in the name of reason can it be true at the same time that Luther, more than 100 years afterwards, discovered it? Really, people must decide which story they are going to tell, for the one is the direct contradictory of the other. Wycliff or Luther, let it be; but Wycliff and Luther together—that is impossible.

(4) Now, it may seem somewhat irrelevant to our present subject, which is simply 'where we got the Bible', to wander off to foreign lands and see how matters stood there at the date at which we have now arrived; but I should not like to pass from this part of the enquiry without setting down a few facts which are generally unknown to our separated brethren, as to the existence of plenty of Bibles in those very countries which they think were, and of course still are, plunged in the depths of superstition, illiteracy and degradation. They flatter themselves with the idea that it was the knowledge of the Scriptures which produced the blessed Reformation the world over; and will tell you that it was all because the Holy Book was scaled and locked and hidden away from the benighted Papists in Continental countries that the glorious light of the Reformation never broke, and has not yet broken, upon them. There are, however, unfortunately for them, facts at hand, facts unquestioned, which explode this pious notion. The facts are these:—(i) As was shown long ago in the Dublin Review (October, 1837), 'it was almost solely in those countries which have remained constant to the Catholic Faith that popular versions of the Bible had been published; while it was precisely in those kingdoms, England, Scotland, Sweden, Denmark and Norway, where Protestantism acquired an early and has maintained a permanent ascendancy, that no printed Bible existed when they embraced Protestantism. Holland alone and a few cities in Germany were in possession of the Bible when they adopted the Reformed Creed.' Is it really the case then, you ask with open eyes, that these Latin countries allowed the Bible to be read and translated and printed before Luther? Listen and judge for yourself what rubbish is crammed into people's heads. (ii) Luther's first Bible (or what pretended to be the Bible, for he had amputated some of its members) came out in 1520. Now, will you believe it, there were exactly 104 editions of the Bible in Latin before that date; there were 9 before the birth of Luther in the German language, and there were 27 in German before ever his own saw the light of day. Many of these were to be seen at the Caxton Exhibition in London, 1877: and seeing is believing. In Italy there were more than 40 editions of the Bible before the first Protestant version appeared, beginning at Venice in 1471; and 25 of these were in the Italian language before 1500, with the express permission of Rome. In France there were 18 editions before 1547, the first appearing in 1478. Spain began to publish editions in the same year, and issued Bibles with the full approval of the Spanish Inquisition (of course one can hardly expect Pro testants to believe this). In Hungary by the year 1456, in Bohemia by the year 1478, in Flanders before 1500, and in other lands groaning under the yoke of Rome, we know that editions of the Sacred Scriptures had been given to the people. 'In all (to quote from "M.C.L's" useful pamphlet on the subject) 626 editions of the Bible, in which 198 were in the language of the laity, had issued from the press, with the sanction and at the instance of the Church, in the countries where she reigned supreme, before the first Protestant version of the Scriptures was sent forth into the world.' England was perhaps worse off than any country at the time of the Reformation in the matter of vernacular versions of the Bible: many Catholic kingdoms abroad had far surpassed her in making known the Sacred Word. Yet these lands remained Catholic; England turned Protestant; what, then, becomes of the pathetic delusion of 'Evangelical' Christians that an acquaintance with the open Bible in our own tongue must necessarily prove fatal to Catholicism? The simple truth of course is just this, that if knowledge of the Scriptures should of itself make people Protestants, then the Italian and French and Spanish and Hungarian and Belgian and Portuguese nations should all have embraced Protestantism, which up to the moment of writing they have declined to do. I am afraid there is something wrong with the theory, for it is in woeful contradiction to plain facts, which may be learned by all who care to take the trouble to read and study for themselves.
 
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MrPolo

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(5) Now, before passing on to another part of the subject, I should like you to pause for a moment with the brief historical review fresh in your memory; and I would simply ask this: How can anyone living in the light of modern education and history cling any longer to the fantastic idea that Rome hates the Bible—that she has done her worst to destroy it—that she conceals it from her people lest it should enlighten their blindness, and that the Holy Book, after lying for many long dark ages in the dungeons and lumber rooms of Popery, was at last exhumed and dragged into the light of day by the great and glorious discoverer, Martin Luther? O foolish Scotchmen, who hath bewitched you? Do you not see that Rome could have easily destroyed it if she had been so disposed during all those centuries that elapsed between its formation into one volume in 397 A.D., and the sixteenth century? It was absolutely, exclusively in her power to do with it as she pleased, for Rome reigned supreme. What more simple than to order her priests and monks and Inquisitors to search out every copy and reduce it to ashes? But did she do this? We have seen that she preserved it and multiplied it. She saved it from utter destruction at the hands of infidels and barbarians and pagan tribes that burned everything Christian they could come across; she saved it and guarded it from total extinction by her care and loving watchfulness; she, and she alone. There was no one else to do it; she only was sent by God to defend His Blessed Word. It might have perished, and would have perished, were it not that she employed her clergy to reproduce it and adorn it and multiply it, and to furnish churches and monasteries with copies of it, which all might read and learn and commit to memory, and meditate upon. Nay, she not only multiplied it in its original languages (Greek and Hebrew), which would have been intelligible and useful only to the learned few, but she put it into the hands of all her people who could read, by translating it into Latin, the universal tongue; and even for those less scholarly she rendered it into the common languages spoken in different countries. Truly she took a curious way of showing her hatred of God's Holy Word and of destroying it. Many senseless charges are laid at the door of the Catholic Church; but surely the accusation that, during the centuries preceding the sixteenth, she was the enemy of the Bible and of Bible reading must, to any one who does not wilfully shut his eyes to facts, appear of all accusations the most ludicrous; and to tell the truth, it is ridiculed and laughed out of court by all serious and impartial students of the question. With far more justice, it humbly seems to me, may the charge of degrading and profaning the Sacred Scriptures be brought against those highly-financed Bible Societies which, with a recklessness that passes comprehension, scatter among savages and pagans utterly uninstructed, tons of Testaments, only to be used for making ball cartridges or wadding, for wrapping up snuff, bacon, tobacco, fruit and other goods; for papering the walls of houses; for converting into tapestry or pretty kites for children; and for other and fouler uses which it makes one ashamed to think of. True, the versions thus degraded are false and heretical, which may mitigate the horror in the eyes of Catholics; but those who thus expose them to dishonour believe them to be the real Words of Life. On their heads, then, falls the guilt of 'giving that which is holy to the dogs'.
(Graham, Rev. Henry, Where We Got the Bible, Chapter XI, Where we got the bible)

These translations include:
Altheim (d. 709) is thought to have written an Old English translation, perhaps of the entire Bible.
Caedmon is mentioned by Bede as one who sang poems in Old English based on the Bible stories but he was not involved in translation per se.
A translation of the Gospel of John into Old English by the Venerable Bede, which he is said to have prepared shortly before his death around the year 735. This translation is lost; we know of its existence through an account of Bede's death.
The Vespasian Psalter, an interlinear gloss found in a manuscript of the Book of Psalms which was prepared around 800. This psalter is in the Mercian dialect.
Eleven other 9th century glosses of the Pslams are known including Eadwines Canterbury Psalter.
King Alfred had a number of passages of the Bible circulated in the vernacular in around 900. These included passages from the Ten Commandments and the Pentateuch, which he prefixed to a code of laws he promulgated around this time. Alfred is also said to have directed the Book of Psalms to have been translated into Old English. Many scholars believe that the fifty Psalms in Old English that are found in the Paris Psalter represent Alfred's translation.
Between 950 and 970, Aldred added a gloss in the Northumbrian dialect of Old English (the Northumbrian Gloss on the Gospels) to the Lindisfarne Gospels as well as a forward describing who wrote and decorated it.
Matthew 6:9-13. Suae onne iuih gie bidde fader urer u ar u bist in heofnum + in heofnas; sie gehalgad noma in; to-cyme ric in. sie willo in suae is in heofne J in eoro. hlaf userne oferwistlic sel us to dg. J forgef us scylda usra suae uoe forgefon scyldgum usum. J ne inld usih in costunge ah gefrig usich from yfle
At around the same time, a priest named Farman wrote a gloss on the Gospel of Matthew that is preserved in a manuscript called the Rushworth Gospels.
In approximately 990, a full and freestanding version of the four Gospels in idiomatic Old English appeared, in the West Saxon dialect; these are known as the Wessex Gospels. Seven manuscript copies of this translation have survived; they apparently had some currency. This version gives the most familiar Old English version of Matthew 6:9-13, the Lord's Prayer:
Fder ure u e eart on heofonum, si in nama gehalgod. To becume in rice, gewure in willa, on eoran swa swa on heofonum. Urne gedghwamlican hlaf syle us todg, and forgyf us ure gyltas, swa swa we forgyfa urum gyltendum. And ne geld u us on costnunge, ac alys us of yfele. Solice.
At about the same time as the Wessex Gospels, a priest of Dorsetshire named Aelfric produced an independent translation of the Pentateuch with Joshua and Judges.
The Caedmon manuscript which was initially ascribed to Caedmon, was written between 700-1000. The extant manuscript was copied about 1000. It includes Biblical material in vernacular verses.
In 1066, the Norman Conquest marked the beginning of the end of the Old English language, and ushered in profound changes in its vocabulary. The project of translating the Bible into Old English ceased at that time. (StateMaster - Encyclopedia: Old English Bible Translations, StateMaster - Encyclopedia: Old English Bible translations)

The gospel of John was translated into Anglo-Saxon by the Venerable Bede (673–735 CE) (Encyclopedia.com, Bible, English Translations of, Bible, English translations of – Dictionary definition of Bible, English translations of | Encyclopedia.com: FREE online dictionary)

Important Figures in the Translation of the Bible:

Caedmon (c. 680 AD) included paraphrases of Biblical passages in his poetry. The passage of the creation in Genesis is the only one that survives. At least two other poets are believed to have followed Caedmon’s example by writing poems based on passages from Daniel and Exodus. The poem based on Exodus is an unusually close translation for the time, it closely paraphrases each phrase from Chapter 12:17 to Chapter 14.

The Book of Psalms was one of the first Biblical books to be translated from Latin. Aldhelm (639-709), the first bishop of Sherborne, is usually regarded as the first English translator of the Psalms into Old English. Old English translations of the Psalms were popular because they were commonly used to train priests. Bede was one of the first teachers who taught Latin by using the Vulgate. The young priests wrote English glosses into their Psalters to aid their studies. There is a wide variation in the quality of these glosses. For example, Psalms 1-50 were translated into English in the Paris Psalter in adequate verse, while Psalms 51-150 were less poetic.

Like the Psalms, the Gospels of the New Testament were popular among the Anglo Saxons. Bede (c. 673-735) understood Latin and diligently translated portions of the New Testament. It is reported that his last moments were spent translating the Bible into Old English, and that his last words were the last words of the Gospel of John. Unfortunately, Bede’s Old English translations have not survived.

King Alfred the Great (849-889) was also a translator of the Psalms, as well as the book of Exodus. His diligence is comparable to that of Bede, since both men died while translating portions of the Bible. As a Biblical translator, Alfred is most famous for his paraphrase of the Ten Commandments, which he placed at the beginning of his own laws as a preface

Aldred glossed portions of the Vulgate by writing English between the lines of the Latin text. Aldred notes the work of an earlier translator, Eadfrith (698-721), whose translations and illustrations are known as the Lindisfarne Gospels of the late seventh-century. The Rushworth and the West Saxon Gospels are beautifully illustrated manuscripts that appear later (they are usually dated around the early eleventh-century).

Aelfric (c. 955-1020) is the most important figure in the history of the Bible during Anglo Saxon times. Like the poet Caedmon, Aelfric took great liberties when translating the Gospels by omitting parts as he saw fit (Ludlow 50). For example, in Genesis, he omits lists of names and difficult passages. He produced the bare outlines of the Biblical stories while displaying skillful prose, poetic rhythm and an adept use of rhetorical figures. One of Aelfric’s greatest achievements is the Heptateuch, which consists of the Pentateuch (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy), Joshua and Judges. The authorship of certain books, which were assumed to be translated by Aelfric, has now been challenged. However, one can be certain that Aelfric did translate the first part of Genesis, the end of Numbers, Joshua and Judges. Aelfric was also author of Catholic Homilies and the Lives of the Saints, which were written in English, and served as histories of Christianity. (Williams, Ian, University of Toronto, 2000, Encyclopedia Article)
 
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CryptoLutheran

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They had good intentions I think - making sure that it was translated properly. I think it was a quality-control issue first and foremost.

This.

Also, portions of Scripture had been rendered into English prior to Wycliffe, check out this article.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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