Demons and Christianity

Occams Barber · May 12, 2020

[serious] said:
You are probably getting a bit of selection bias. I can see three viewpoints regarding demons:
1. Demons don't exist
2. Demons exist but do not routinely cause supernatural events on earth.
3. Demons exist and regularly impact events on earth.

I would guess that most Christians would fall into group 2, and would tend to side more with group 1 when it comes to attributing events to demonic forces.

The trouble getting an accurate read on it casually is two fold:
1. Those most likely to be vocal on the issue are those in group 3
2. casual polling would tend to conflate groups 2 and 3 (as in "do you believe in demons?")

There's also a bias in the population I'm sampling in this thread. I suspect that CFers lean towards the conservative end of the Christian spectrum. The CF pop is also predominately American. This means that the opinions I'm seeing here are predominantly vocal, conservative Christians with a culturally US viewpoint.

[serious] said:
It should also be noted that there's an entire subset of beliefs that largely mirror each other, but with demographic shifts. If you look at ghosts, demons, aliens, etc. you find about half of people believe in them. However, regular church attendance has a positive correlation with belief in demons, and a negative correlation with belief in aliens. So another possible explanation is that about half of people believe in supernatural entities regardless of religion, but the specific way they view the supernatural is shaped by religious affiliation.

I'm a bit cautious about the alien/demon correlations you've mentioned. I don't see aliens as supernatural entities and even I would concede the possibility aliens exist somewhere although not necessarily hiding out on this planet. Aliens, if they are out there, are by definition natural life forms. I also include simple life like molds or bacteria under the general heading of aliens.

I concede that the popular conception of aliens is probably an intelligent being who flits around locally in a flying saucer but even this interpretation does not require they be supernatural. Demons on the other hand are definitely supernatural. What I'm saying is that belief in demons may not equate with belief in aliens.
OB

Silmarien · May 12, 2020

Occams Barber said:
The level of matter-of-fact acceptance of demons in this thread has surprised me although looking at the number of demon related CF posts I shouldn't be surprised. I think 2 posters may have leaned towards seeing demons as metaphorical.

One of the problems in trying to gauge overall Christian beliefs is that CF members are not a typical cross section. While we have no available data on our CF population it appears to be weighted towards the conservative end of the spectrum. Factor in an overwhelming American majority and the population may be a long way from being a representative sample of Christians generally.

As I've said in another post I suspect the more liberal churches may be too embarrassed to openly admit to demon belief even though it does appear to be deeply buried in the Christian psyche.

OB

I don't think it's that uncommon for liberal Christians to be embarrassed by more conservative beliefs, but this usually isn't because they secretly believe in them too and don't want to admit it. It's because they don't believe them, and yet self-identify with an institution that teaches them.

There really isn't any one "Christian psyche" that can be applied to both conservatives and liberals, I would say, since a lot of the starting points are different, and liberals are in some ways fairly secularized. We all live in the modern world, after all, and that plays a role in everyone's psyche, for better or for worse.

I do agree that this forum leans overwhelmingly conservative, so isn't particularly representative of the Christian world at large. Granted, conservative churches tend to do better than liberal ones so I'd assume there are more conservatives out there, but things are still quite skewed here.

Occams Barber said:
I concede that the popular conception of aliens is probably an intelligent being who flits around locally in a flying saucer but even this interpretation does not require they be supernatural. Demons on the other hand are definitely supernatural. What I'm saying is that belief in demons may not equate with belief in aliens.

I would deny that demons have to be supernatural. If they exist, they could totally be some sort of Star Trek style extra-dimensional energy being.

Radagast · May 12, 2020

Silmarien said:
I do agree that this forum leans overwhelmingly conservative, so isn't particularly representative of the Christian world at large.

According to Pew Forum, 21% of U.S. Christians are mainline (liberal) Protestants. The percentage is lower in places like Africa, so "the Christian world at large" is probably pretty conservative.

Occams Barber · May 12, 2020

hedrick said:
This suggests that there is a certain amount of skepticism: Most American Christians Do Not Believe that Satan or the Holy Spirit Exist - Barna Group. Here's a survey of the American public as a whole: Belief in demons | QuickStats | The Association of Religion Data Archives.

This gives more information for specific Christian groups: U.S. Religious Landscape Survey: Religious Beliefs and Practices

But there's a range of Christian belief and practice even within specific groups such as Evangelicals. My guess is that the 1/3 of evangelicals who weren't sure about demons are also ones that don't attend church as often, and have other non-traditional beliefs.

You're right that CF tends to be conservative, but still, belief in literal demons is typical among conservative Protestants, but not necessarily mainline Christians or (speculating) Catholics.

One thing I noticed is the remarkable consistency in demon belief across all three studies (Barna- 64%, ARDA- 67%, PEW - 68%. I was also surprised at the high level of belief - roughly two thirds 'absolutely' or 'probably' accept demons as real. I think my surprise relates to living in a country where Christianity is almost a minority religion.

I also pulled this table out of ARDA. Despite the fact that Catholicism is the denomination seen to be most associated with demonology, Protestants appear to have a bigger proportion of believers and a higher level of certainty.

For anyone else interested in who believes in demons the ARDA paper has tables covering belief by Age, Worship Attendance, Education, Political Party, Gender and Religion. (thanks @hedrick )

OB

Radagast · May 12, 2020

Occams Barber said:
For anyone else interested in who believes in demons the ARDA paper has tables covering belief by Age, Worship Attendance, Education, Political Party, Gender and Religion. (thanks @hedrick )

Pity that they didn't use the Pew Forum taxonomy of denominations to get more detail.

zippy2006 · May 12, 2020

Occams Barber said:
You seem to be saying that it isn't really possible to differentiate between natural events and those caused by demonic interference.

There is just a lot of variance in the ideas of what exactly a demon (or angel) is. For example, an older model would say that spirits exercise some force or control over "nature" itself. For the Greeks a storm may have wrecked the fleet, but it is also right to say that Poseidon did so.

A materialist (presumably you also mean atheist) could never study a spiritual being since, from his/her point of view, spiritual beings only exist in the minds of believers. There is no point to be missed.

Materialists also think about these questions, particularly in their criticisms. Their conception of a spiritual being is often quite strange, being something like an invisible material being. In any case, my point was that it isn't right to think about demons as inert objects of study in the same way that a platypus is. In that way the alien analogy can actually be quite helpful. It might be more accurate to say that demons/angels study us rather than that we study them.

Occams Barber · May 12, 2020

Silmarien said:
I would deny that demons have to be supernatural. If they exist, they could totally be some sort of Star Trek style extra-dimensional energy being.

So... they finally reopened the bars in New York?

OB

Carl Emerson · May 13, 2020

Sometimes one doesn't need discernment to determine demonic activity.

Case in point.

An elder of Spreydon Baptist Church, Colin Harrington, a returned missionary, was giving refuge to a disturbed woman who was 'hearing voices'.

It was a somewhat intense struggle but the woman was determined to get her life back on track.

Next thing the phone rings - a voice on the other end says " She's not yours, she's ours !!! "

And yes, the voice was the same as what she was hearing in her head.

This story can easily be verified.

Occams Barber · May 13, 2020

topher694 said:
Long response warning!

I think the best way to explain what I believe about how the demonic works is to give a real world example. This is a real story that I have direct knowledge of, only the names have been changed to protect the innocent:

There is a young man, married with young children that attended a church I am closely affiliated with for a long time. This young man's father abandoned him when he was young. Since then he has craved that father figure in his life which the pastor of this church filled that in many ways. This pastor went above and beyond for this young man and embraced the role.

However, this young man also had a tendency to lash out in rebellion from time to time. Eventually during one of these outbursts the young man decided that this pastor and the entire church was out to get him, got extremely angry and he and his family left. But leaving wasn’t enough. Then things got vindictive, especially on social media. I probably don’t have to elaborate further on that.

Well this young man also happened to be very enamored with the demonic. As we talked about prior, saw demons being responsible for much more than they probably were.

So I said all of that to setup this. One night in the midst of this situation this young man had a dream/vision/experience alone in his home. This is how he described it: Several demons came to him in his bedroom, held him down and tried to kill him. It almost worked, but he managed to fight them off. Here’s the kicker… The pastor who he once looked up to, but was now so angry at? Apparently that pastor used witchcraft to send those demons to kill him. How do I know this is what he believes? Because, shortly after he made a YouTube video describing the entire situation and posted it on social media.

So here is how *I* see the demonic in this situation. There were no demons sent to his room (scripturally there were many errors with that as well). Here we have young man who is angry and bitter at a pastor and enamored with the demonic. Would it be a surprise to anyone that if when young man fell asleep he might dream about these topics which are consuming his mind? Not unusual at all. It happens to all of us. It was a natural dream based on his current life situation, nothing more.

However, here is where I believe the demonic comes in. After this dream the demonic comes to push his buttons (fiery darts). The button of hurt from his father leaving. The button of bitterness at the perceived betrayal of his mentor. And the demonic uses that to convince him the dream is real and he was actually attacked… even though he wasn’t. This causes him to go on the internet and publicly accuse his former pastor of - for lack of a better term - attempted murder via demons. Now, the Bible says there are 6 things God hates and a 7th that is an abomination to Him. What is the abomination? One who sows discord among the brethren. What happened with this young man? Past hurts and misunderstandings were used as tools to nudge him into doing something that God hates and hurts not just individuals but the Church as a whole. Additionally the hurts and mistrust from his father leaving him have now been reinforced further and the stage is set for his next pastor to say the wrong thing to him and the whole process starts again… it usually gets worse as it goes.

Here’s where inner healing and deliverance comes in. In a nutshell, you identify the hurts and wounds of the past, especially the root issues. Sometimes they are obvious, sometimes less so. Then you lead them in forgiveness. That way when the demonic comes to push those buttons they find they are no longer there. It doesn’t work anymore. That’s a major over-simplification, clearly there is more to it than that, but that’s the idea.

Now I do believe that there are more unexplainable/supernatural things that can be attributed to the demonic, but that is far more rare and far less sensational than is usually described.

For the sake of discussion I accept that, at some point, demons involved themselves in this young man's life.

In setting out his story you've identified multiple points where things went wrong starting with his father's desertion. You've nominated a point just after the dream as the point where demonic interference starts.

There are a couple of obvious questions I have to ask:
On what basis did you determine that demonic interference started after the dream?
Why could it not have started at an earlier or later stage?

Based on what you've told me, the point where demons come into play appears arbitrary. I can't see anything in the story which explains how you determined that that particular point is the one where demonic activity begins. The idea of sowing discord could be equally applied at other points in the story. This goes to the issue of my third question:

How do Christians differentiate between things caused by demons and naturally (including human) caused events?

I appreciate that the point of the story is to help explain demonic modus operandi but it also raises the issue of discriminating between demonic interference and non-demonic normality.

OB

Occams Barber · May 13, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
Sometimes one doesn't need discernment to determine demonic activity.

Case in point.

An elder of Spreydon Baptist Church, Colin Harrington, a returned missionary, was giving refuge to a disturbed woman who was 'hearing voices'.

It was a somewhat intense struggle but the woman was determined to get her life back on track.

Next thing the phone rings - a voice on the other end says " She's not yours, she's ours !!! "

And yes, the voice was the same as what she was hearing in her head.

This story can easily be verified.

Fantastic

Please go ahead and obtain verification.

I'll be waiting here eagerly anticipating your return

OB

Radagast · May 13, 2020

Occams Barber said:
How do Christians differentiate between things caused by demons and naturally (including human) caused events?

Don't look at me. I believe that all that they currently do is whisper bad advice in your ear. Things like "So and so's gotta PAY" or "Go on, she's totally asking for it" or "They're never going to notice a few thousand missing."

Carl Emerson · May 13, 2020

OK this was back in the late 70's and I will need to contact his son. This will take days rather than hours so be patient. Im not sure if Colin is still alive.

I would like to ask though, what difference will it make if I verify so that I know the effort will be worth while?

Isn't it more important for you to have evidence of God???

You can read my testimony here...

Jesus's Ministry

Radagast · May 13, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
This story can easily be verified.

I'm curious as to what you mean by "verified" in this case.

Especially the part where a voice on the telephone heard by the man is identical to the voice in the woman's head.

From a Christian point of view, I also have concerns about the underlying theology.

Radagast · May 13, 2020

[serious] said:
You are probably getting a bit of selection bias. I can see three viewpoints regarding demons:
1. Demons don't exist
2. Demons exist but do not routinely cause supernatural events on earth.
3. Demons exist and regularly impact events on earth.

I would guess that most Christians would fall into group 2, and would tend to side more with group 1 when it comes to attributing events to demonic forces.

The trouble getting an accurate read on it casually is two fold:
1. Those most likely to be vocal on the issue are those in group 3
2. casual polling would tend to conflate groups 2 and 3 (as in "do you believe in demons?")

I think you are absolutely correct. Group 2 is probably the majority Christian view.

The difference between groups 2 and 3 is heavily dependent on denomination. In particular, as I've said, it at least partially mirrors the Amillennial/Premillennial divide.

And yes, poorly worded survey questions will conflate groups 2 and 3. They will also misclassify some of group 2 as group 1.

[serious] · May 13, 2020

hedrick said:
There is another possibility: Demons aren't conscious entities, but represent suprapersonal evil. Even if it's not conscious, I don't think there's any question that there's an evil that's bigger than any individual. Maybe it's social, maybe it's supernatural, but it's there.

Are you talking about the metaphorical concept of inner demons?

coffee4u · May 13, 2020

Occams Barber said:
There are a couple of obvious questions I have to ask:
On what basis did you determine that demonic interference started after the dream?
Why could it not have started at an earlier or later stage?

I don't believe as an outsider we can know that. The occult and demonic are mostly done hidden, it can be hard enough for us to even know ourselves when we are being needled unless we are paying close attention. Is the likelihood high that the demonic would use this situation-yes, but at what point in time- we can't know.

How do Christians differentiate between things caused by demons and naturally (including human) caused events?

Click to expand...

I think most Christians would look to the physical, naturally occurring and mental first. There are of course some who view nearly everything as being an attack from demons but they would be the minority.
Then where other people have attributed something to say a ghost(most Christians don't believe in ghosts) a Christian would more likely to attribute to a demon or an angel.

I think demons can impact individual lives but not really 'impact events on earth' that is attributing them far too much power. They are fallen angles not God. It would take demon possession for a person to have some kind of wider impact. I don't believe they can affect natural events.

Occams Barber · May 13, 2020

Radagast said:
Don't look at me. I believe that all that they currently do is whisper bad advice in your ear. Things like "So and so's gotta PAY" or "Go on, she's totally asking for it" or "They're never going to notice a few thousand missing."

Sounds like a scene from a B grade movie.

Do you have any firsthand experience of this type of demonic temptation or do demons usually avoid you?
OB

[serious] · May 13, 2020

Occams Barber said:
There's also a bias in the population I'm sampling in this thread. I suspect that CFers lean towards the conservative end of the Christian spectrum. The CF pop is also predominately American. This means that the opinions I'm seeing here are predominantly vocal, conservative Christians with a culturally US viewpoint.

I'm a bit cautious about the alien/demon correlations you've mentioned. I don't see aliens as supernatural entities and even I would concede the possibility aliens exist somewhere although not necessarily hiding out on this planet. Aliens, if they are out there, are by definition natural life forms. I also include simple life like molds or bacteria under the general heading of aliens.

I concede that the popular conception of aliens is probably an intelligent being who flits around locally in a flying saucer but even this interpretation does not require they be supernatural. Demons on the other hand are definitely supernatural. What I'm saying is that belief in demons may not equate with belief in aliens.
OB

While it's not a perfect comparison, the concept of an intelligent being, unobserved by science, acting on earth in ways not explained by known science is certainly analogous.

I would certainly not include the possibility of say microbial life in some distant solar system in that group even though it would technically be "alien" life.

Radagast · May 13, 2020

[serious] said:
Are you talking about the metaphorical concept of inner demons?

I think he's talking about what E.E. "Doc" Smith called "a residuum of non-material malignancy against which all the physical weapons of all the universes would be completely impotent."

[serious] · May 13, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
Sometimes one doesn't need discernment to determine demonic activity.

Case in point.

An elder of Spreydon Baptist Church, Colin Harrington, a returned missionary, was giving refuge to a disturbed woman who was 'hearing voices'.

It was a somewhat intense struggle but the woman was determined to get her life back on track.

Next thing the phone rings - a voice on the other end says " She's not yours, she's ours !!! "

And yes, the voice was the same as what she was hearing in her head.

This story can easily be verified.

That does not seem to lend itself to verification. First, how would we know that it's the same voice? The person answering the phone would not know the voice she heard in her head, so they'd have no point of comparison. It's unlikely three call would be recorded, so we couldn't verify even what was said.

At best we could confirm that a woman was hearing voices and a place where she was staying reported an odd call.

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