Demons and Christianity

Radagast · May 12, 2020

Occams Barber said:
One of the many things which has surprised me about Christianity, since joining CF back in 2012, is the apparently widespread Christian belief in the existence of demons.

All Christians believe in the literal existence of demons. They are mentioned repeatedly in the Bible. They are generally understood to be angels who turned to evil. For a fairly broadly accepted view, see C.S. Lewis's book The Screwtape Letters.

Christians disagree on what powers demons have, and what they are, or are not, able to do.

The idea that so-called ‘aliens’ are actually demons would very much be a "fringe" view.

Carl Emerson · May 12, 2020

Both the RC and Anglican churches have appointed priests to deal with such phenomena.

If I am called to minister in this area I will normally contact a couple who I have known for 35 years with a track record of discernment. Discernment is a body ministry and we need to work in mutual submission and unity.

This is not a pleasant calling - direct encounter can be pretty disgusting.

Psychiatrists are starting to come out with reports of behaviours they need to admit are spiritual in nature. Some patients display super human strength and paranormal abilities beyond normal human behaviours.

Radagast · May 12, 2020

Occams Barber said:
demons have switched from possession to deception

A view accepted by many, but not all, Christians, is that the powers of demons were severely curtailed after Jesus' resurrection. In particular, most Christians would believe that Christians cannot be "possessed." However, the ability of demons to deceive remains.

Catholics have for centuries had a class of exorcists who deal with cases of demonic "possession." Depiction of exorcism in movies is a parody of reality, of course.

Christians accepting premillennial eschatology will generally see demons as having greater current powers than Christians accepting amillenial eschatology.

Tom 1 · May 12, 2020

Occams Barber said:
One of the many things which has surprised me about Christianity, since joining CF back in 2012, is the apparently widespread Christian belief in the existence of demons. Attributing various negative events and strange experiences to demonic activity is a regular occurrence in this Forum, leaving the impression that belief in demons is broadly accepted by Christians.

In a recent example, I came across an opinion that so-called ‘aliens’ were actually (probably) demons and that alien cults were likely to be demon inspired. This is only one of many instances where I've seen demonic activity described as the cause of a negative event.

I’d be interested in hearing informed Christian opinion on the concept of demons particularly as it relates to the following questions:

What is a demon?

Is belief in the actual (as opposed to metaphorical) existence of demons and demonic activity an across-the-board Christian belief or is it confined to certain denominations or Christian sub-groups?

How do Christians differentiate between things caused by demons and naturally (including human) caused events?

Please note that I am not advancing a personal opinion for or against the existence of demons. I’m curious about how they are perceived by Christians.

OB

Interesting question. The bible (as I see it anyway) presents a few different related ideas - a kind of psychotic fugue state (Nebuchadnezzar II in the book of Daniel), instances of what might be taken as epileptic fits (Mark 9) and other cases that are clearly meant to represent possession by an evil spirit or spirits (legion - Mark 5). In other parts of the bible 'spirit' is used to refer to things like the spirit of the age, the spirit that guides a person and so on, to do with behaviours prompted by different spiritual influences, which seems to encapsulate a lot of different things including thinking and emotion as well as the influence of spiritual forces, however when it comes to people acting in ways considered evil or destructive there is more a blend of individual behaviours that leave a person open to or lead to these influences having some sort of sway, as in James 1:14-15 and Luke 22:3. Sin itself is sometimes referred to as if it were an entity or force of some sort, as in Genesis 4:7, but that may just be figurative. Satan as 'the accuser' in Job is also, I think, figurative in that Job is a book of philosophy and the character role is a device used to expound part of the overall idea. There are also comparisons in the bible between the ideas of spiritual powers/ magical powers / fake trickery, as with the so-called Simon the Sorcerer in Acts 8, there being the idea that there were then as now claims about real vs fake spiritual phenomena.

This article was referenced in a recent thread on this topic https://www.washingtonpost.com/post...tal-illness-and-sometimes-demonic-possession/ , so you might find that interesting, or this one which is not about demons but related ideas about supernatural experiences: The Psychiatrist Who Believed People Could Tell the Future

More specifically while the bible references all of the above it doesn't give a clear definition of what exactly is meant in a modern sense, these ideas evidently had a meaning in the context of the time, and that doesn't seem to be all that different to what people take them to mean in a very broad sense, i.e. things from a spiritual dimension that interact in some ways with the material world.

Radagast · May 12, 2020

Occams Barber said:
Do you know if the Anglican Church has an official position on demons?

See here for a book from the (Evangelical) Sydney Anglicans.

Occams Barber · May 12, 2020

Radagast said:
All Christians believe in the literal existence of demons. They are mentioned repeatedly in the Bible. They are generally understood to be angels who turned to evil. For a fairly broadly accepted view, see C.S. Lewis's book The Screwtape Letters.

You may be right but this is contested by others who have contributed to this thread i.e. there are opinions suggesting that liberal churches may not accept demons as literal fact.

Radagast said:
Christians disagree on what powers demons have, and what they are, or are not, able to do.

If this is correct would it not suggest that the concept of demons is highly contested within Christianity?

Radagast said:
The idea that so-called ‘aliens’ are actually demons would very much be a "fringe" view

You may well be correct. I used this as a recent (two days ago) example of demonic belief. I can only repeat what Christians are telling me.
OB

Occams Barber · May 12, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
Both the RC and Anglican churches have appointed priests to deal with such phenomena.

If this is correct it is a solid indication that these denominations accept the idea of demons

Carl Emerson said:
If I am called to minister in this area I will normally contact a couple who I have known for 35 years with a track record of discernment. Discernment is a body ministry and we need to work in mutual submission and unity.

This is not a pleasant calling - direct encounter can be pretty disgusting.

Interesting, but I'm not seeing how it relates to the OP

Carl Emerson said:
Psychiatrists are starting to come out with reports of behaviours they need to admit are spiritual in nature. Some patients display super human strength and paranormal abilities beyond normal human behaviours.

If I were contesting the existence of demons I might ask for some verification of your claims. Since that isn't the purpose of this thread I won't go there.

OB

Occams Barber · May 12, 2020

Tom 1 said:
Interesting question. The bible (as I see it anyway) presents a few different related ideas - a kind of psychotic fugue state (Nebuchadnezzar II in the book of Daniel), instances of what might be taken as epileptic fits (Mark 9) and other cases that are clearly meant to represent possession by an evil spirit or spirits (legion - Mark 5). In other parts of the bible 'spirit' is used to refer to things like the spirit of the age, the spirit that guides a person and so on, to do with behaviours prompted by different spiritual influences, which seems to encapsulate a lot of different things including thinking and emotion as well as the influence of spiritual forces, however when it comes to people acting in ways considered evil or destructive there is more a blend of individual behaviours that leave a person open to or lead to these influences having some sort of sway, as in James 1:14-15 and Luke 22:3. Sin itself is sometimes referred to as if it were an entity or force of some sort, as in Genesis 4:7, but that may just be figurative. Satan as 'the accuser' in Job is also, I think, figurative in that Job is a book of philosophy and the character role is a device used to expound part of the overall idea. There are also comparisons in the bible between the ideas of spiritual powers/ magical powers / fake trickery, as with the so-called Simon the Sorcerer in Acts 8, there being the idea that there were then as now claims about real vs fake spiritual phenomena.

This article was referenced in a recent thread on this topic https://www.washingtonpost.com/post...tal-illness-and-sometimes-demonic-possession/ , so you might find that interesting, or this one which is not about demons but related ideas about supernatural experiences: The Psychiatrist Who Believed People Could Tell the Future

More specifically while the bible references all of the above it doesn't give a clear definition of what exactly is meant in a modern sense, these ideas evidently had a meaning in the context of the time, and that doesn't seem to be all that different to what people take them to mean in a very broad sense, i.e. things from a spiritual dimension that interact in some ways with the material world.

I'll be blunt Tom.

You are one of my preferred commentators in CF. You are rational, logical and not afraid of telling it like it is.

In this case I have no idea what you're talking about, relative to the OP, apart from (maybe) "I don't know".
OB

Occams Barber · May 12, 2020

Radagast said:
See here for a book from the (Evangelical) Sydney Anglicans.

I see an ad for a book written by someone called Peter Bolt. I see no indication that it reflects Anglican doctrine or (even) the doctrines of (Evangelical) Sydney Anglicans.

Therefore I do not see how it relates to the OP.
OB

Carl Emerson · May 12, 2020

This may be of interest...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/post...tal-illness-and-sometimes-demonic-possession/

Occams Barber said:
Interesting, but I'm not seeing how it relates to the OP

This relates to your third question. Discernment of spirits is a spiritual gift. Personally I consider it rare but real.

Radagast · May 12, 2020

Occams Barber said:
You may be right but this is contested by others who have contributed to this thread i.e. there are opinions suggesting that liberal churches may not accept demons as literal fact.

Well, there are many Christian doctrines which liberal churches might not accept. I can't speak for them.

Occams Barber said:
If this is correct would it not suggest that the concept of demons is highly contested within Christianity?

No. Their existence is generally accepted. Their powers are debated, however.

Radagast · May 12, 2020

Occams Barber said:
I see an ad for a book written by someone called Peter Bolt. I see no indication that it reflects Anglican doctrine or (even) the doctrines of (Evangelical) Sydney Anglicans.

It's a book about demons from Matthias Media, which is the publishing arm of the Sydney Anglican Diocese.

So not an "official view," but an "endorsed view," to some extent.

Occams Barber said:
If this is correct it is a solid indication that these denominations accept the idea of demons

Earlier, I linked to the Catholic Encyclopedia article on exorcism.

Occams Barber · May 12, 2020

At last something on topic.

Radagast said:
A view accepted by many, but not all, Christians, is that the powers of demons were severely curtailed after Jesus' resurrection. In particular, most Christians would believe that Christians cannot be "possessed." However, the ability of demons to deceive remains.

I'm not necessarily doubting you but I'm finding that opinion comes cheaply on this topic. Can you back this up in any way.

Radagast said:
Catholics have for centuries had a class of exorcists who deal with cases of demonic "possession." Depiction of exorcism in movies is a parody of reality, of course.

I accept that the concept of exorcism, as seen in movies, is a parody. My interest is in the reality of what is doctrinally accepted by Christians.

Radagast said:
Christians accepting premillennial eschatology will generally see demons as having greater current powers than Christians accepting amillenial eschatology.

So the degree of demonology varies relative to end times philosophy. Is the change significant?
OB

coffee4u · May 12, 2020

Occams Barber said:
One of the many things which has surprised me about Christianity, since joining CF back in 2012, is the apparently widespread Christian belief in the existence of demons. Attributing various negative events and strange experiences to demonic activity is a regular occurrence in this Forum, leaving the impression that belief in demons is broadly accepted by Christians.

In a recent example, I came across an opinion that so-called ‘aliens’ were actually (probably) demons and that alien cults were likely to be demon inspired. This is only one of many instances where I've seen demonic activity described as the cause of a negative event.

I’d be interested in hearing informed Christian opinion on the concept of demons particularly as it relates to the following questions:

What is a demon?

Is belief in the actual (as opposed to metaphorical) existence of demons and demonic activity an across-the-board Christian belief or is it confined to certain denominations or Christian sub-groups?

How do Christians differentiate between things caused by demons and naturally (including human) caused events?

Please note that I am not advancing a personal opinion for or against the existence of demons. I’m curious about how they are perceived by Christians.
OB

Well at least I gave you the idea for a new thread or I am assuming so.

What is a demon?

A demon is a fallen angel.
Revelation 12:9
9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Matthew 25:41
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Is belief in the actual (as opposed to metaphorical) existence of demons and demonic activity an across-the-board Christian belief or is it confined to certain denominations or Christian sub-groups?

Anyone who reads and believes the Bible. They are all through scripture.
Jesus cast demons out of people a few times.

How do Christians differentiate between things caused by demons and naturally (including human) caused events?

We are told to test the spirits and have discernment.
1 John 4

Test the Spirits
4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God

The spiritual realm (God, angels and demons) are just as real as the human and physical.
If human activity, drugs and mental issues have been ruled out we would seriously look towards the spiritual.

God tells us that our battle is not against humans but against the spiritual.
Ephesians 6:10-12
10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. 11 Put on the whole armour of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Because they can and will deceive.
2 Corinthians 11:14
14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.

Occams Barber · May 12, 2020

(My third question)

Occams Barber said:
How do Christians differentiate between things caused by demons and naturally (including human) caused events?

Carl Emerson said:
This relates to your third question. Discernment of spirits is a spiritual gift. Personally I consider it rare but real.

I discussed the issue of discernment in my reply to an earlier post:

Occams Barber said:
That said - you have addressed the issue of how a Christian might decide if something is demon caused or not. Your answer was 'discernment' which is something Christians often refer to. The problem with discernment is that there is no clear way of knowing if a discernment is actually correct. Wrong discernment, especially when it attributes something with a natural explanation to demonic causes, can result in real problems. I have no problem with the general idea of discernment as long as it includes considering the natural factors (i.e. non-demonic).

In other words I think that discernment is most effective when it also takes account of factual information along with any sense of God's will. I'm not a Christian but I suspect even God might agree that factual information is a very useful tool when deciding what is the best course of action.

OB

Radagast · May 12, 2020

Occams Barber said:
I have no problem with the general idea of discernment as long as it includes considering the natural factors (i.e. non-demonic).

The Catholic Encyclopedia says "Possession is not lightly to be taken for granted. Each case is to be carefully examined and great caution to be used in distinguishing genuine possession from certain forms of disease."

Radagast · May 12, 2020

Occams Barber said:
I'm not necessarily doubting you but I'm finding that opinion comes cheaply on this topic. Can you back this up in any way.

I gave you a bunch of links. You didn't bother to read them. I'm done.

Occams Barber said:
So the degree of demonology varies relative to end times philosophy. Is the change significant?

Yes.

Occams Barber · May 12, 2020

coffee4u said:
Well at least I gave you the idea for a new thread or I am assuming so.

You assume correctly. It's an issue I'd previously thought about but I didn't want to derail the original thread we were on.

coffee4u said:
A demon is a fallen angel.

This appears to be an emerging consensus apart from those who have suggested that demons are metaphorical constructs.

coffee4u said:
Is belief in the actual (as opposed to metaphorical) existence of demons and demonic activity an across-the-board Christian belief or is it confined to certain denominations or Christian sub-groups?

Anyone who reads and believes the Bible. They are all through scripture.
Jesus cast demons out of people a few times.

So far I'm seeing a majority opinion on the reality of demons although there is a view that more liberal church(es) (for example: Anglican?) may differ.

coffee4u said:
How do Christians differentiate between things caused by demons and naturally (including human) caused events?

We are told to test the spirits and have discernment.

Discernment is probably the rough equivalent of intuition in a secular world. I am not convinced that either approach is reliable without adding in an effort to understand the factual basis of what is being discerned. There is real danger that those practicing discernment will do so without first investigating real world explanations and place excessive reliance on 'feelings'. Occams razor suggests that the less complex answer is more likely. Commonsense suggests that the more informed opinion is more likely to be correct.
OB

Tom 1 · May 12, 2020

Occams Barber said:
I'll be blunt Tom.

You are one of my preferred commentators in CF. You are rational, logical and not afraid of telling it like it is.

In this case I have no idea what you're talking about, relative to the OP, apart from (maybe) "I don't know".
OB

Lol yes, that is it. There’s no users guide to demons or demonologicon, or whatever you might call it, in the bible. Those are passages relevant to the question (in my post). The terms fallen angel, demon etc in the bible meant something to people at the time but they don’t have any intrinsic explanatory power. If you want definitions, you might be best talking to a Catholic, as the Catholic Church has actual exorcists who presumably have some more definite ideas about what the term demon means.

Occams Barber · May 12, 2020

Tom 1 said:
Lol yes, that is it. There’s no users guide to demons or demonologicon, or whatever you would call it, in the bible. Those are passages relevant to the question. The terms fallen angel, demon etc in the bible meant something to people at the time but they don’t have any intrinsic explanatory power. If you want definitions of a kind, you might be best talking to a Catholic, as the Catholic Church has actual exorcists who presumably have some more definite ideas about what the term means.

Hmmm - you're probably right.

Now - how do I gently let down the other expert contributors to this thread and explain that there's no such thing as a Protestant demon? The only Catholic contributor (I'm aware of) just said that demons are very real and very dangerous (post #2). He didn't mention they were all Catholic.

Seriously - it would have been fairly easy to assume a tight relationship between the Catholic Church and demons. I intentionally tried to avoid this since I had no real knowledge about the Catholic doctrinal attitude to demons, just stereotypical images derived from fiction and movies. I also wanted a thread which explored demonology in a broader Christian context without overtones of The Exorcist or Medieval baggage.

I wanted (and still want) to explore how Christians as a whole understand the concept of demons.

OB

Postscript; In my occasional forays into this forum my objective is rarely to understand what the Bible says. My interest is in what the people, the real day-to-day Christians, actually believe.

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