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[True Science]

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[Armoured]

Polycarp.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7033/6668494795_ee7db12603.jpg

 

[True Science]

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[Gregory the NonTheologian]

Polycarp: The True Church Is Catholic (but not the false mainstream RCC and EO)

The phrase that is used is καθολικὴ ἐκκλησία, which means "universal Church". Ignatius' also uses the word in his Epistle to the Smyrnaeans (written in the late 1st or early 2nd century):

Shun divisions, as the beginning of evils. Do ye all follow your bishop, as Jesus Christ followed the Father, and the presbytery as the Apostles; and to the deacons pay respect, as to God’s commandment. Let no man do aught of things pertaining to the Church apart from the bishop. Let that be held a valid eucharist which is under the bishop or one to whom he shall have committed it. Wheresoever the bishop shall appear, there let the people be; even as where Jesus may be, there is the universal [καθολικῆς] Church. It is not lawful apart from the bishop either to baptize or to hold a love-feast [i.e. agape meal]; but whatsoever he shall approve, this is well-pleasing also to God; that everything which ye do may be sure and valid (8:1-2).​

Without arguing whether either the Roman Catholic or the Eastern Orthodox Church is or is not the "True Church", what, in your opinion, is the "Catholic/Universal Church" that Polycarp and Ignatius were referring to at the time they wrote their Epistles?

 

[True Science]

The phrase that is used is καθολικὴ ἐκκλησία, which means "universal Church". Ignatius' also uses the word in his Epistle to the Smyrnaeans (written in the late 1st or early 2nd century):

Shun divisions, as the beginning of evils. Do ye all follow your bishop, as Jesus Christ followed the Father, and the presbytery as the Apostles; and to the deacons pay respect, as to God’s commandment. Let no man do aught of things pertaining to the Church apart from the bishop. Let that be held a valid eucharist which is under the bishop or one to whom he shall have committed it. Wheresoever the bishop shall appear, there let the people be; even as where Jesus may be, there is the universal [καθολικῆς] Church. It is not lawful apart from the bishop either to baptize or to hold a love-feast [i.e. agape meal]; but whatsoever he shall approve, this is well-pleasing also to God; that everything which ye do may be sure and valid (8:1-2).​

Without arguing whether either the Roman Catholic or the Eastern Orthodox Church is or is not the "True Church", what, in your opinion, is the "Catholic/Universal Church" that Polycarp and Ignatius were referring to at the time they wrote their Epistles?

Hello Gregory,

The Church is a spiritual entity and organism which is IN CHRIST. Such that will not be plucked from the Father's hand and the Gates of Sheol will not prevail against. But it is not of this world/system and is not bound to any particular physical genealogical succession of men and their earthly organizations. I know exactly where you are going with this but Paul understood this when he told the Galatians that if even an angels and apostles, even him preached different than what they had received that they were to be anathematized. The Scripture prophesied of a time of worldwide Great Apostasy. We are in that time and have been for some time. It had to come before the Antichrist could. Unfortunately because of this the Church is in state of not so good confusion, and disorganization and picking up pieces, like an individual assembly would after a vicious wave of persecution. It is prophesied that at the times of the 4th Beast Daniel, the Little Horn was to wear out the saints of the Most High and speak blasphemous words against God and think to change his Laws and Appointed Times. But though a great battle may have heavily done damage to the Church, the war is hers always in the end, for she is in the King of king and Lord of lords. We must with much trouble enter the Kingdom and though things look grim and hopeless now more than ever for the Church we must all the more put on the shield of faith in the Lord's promise as we see the Day approaching. We must have confidence because we have reason to since all his Words are coming to pass just as foretold, and therefore we can have assurance that though the carnal eye may perceive that either the Church has fallen and the promise failed or else it is in traditions, doctrines, and organizations of man, we know that his Word is true and that his Church is spiritual and the Kingdom is not of this world/system. Solomon said history repeats itself, everything new is old, what has been will be again, there is nothing new under the sun. Just as in the days of old most of Israel apostatized, so also it is now. Just as then the Lord had a remnant according to the election of grace, “I have reserved for myself 5000 men who have not bowed the knee to Ba’al,” so he has now with today’s Israel of God reserved for him his “little flock,” the elect that it is not possible to deceive effectually, those who follow the narrow way that few find. Let us therefore not judge according to the flesh, according to the appearance, but let us judge with righteous spiritually minded judgment which is the One True Catholic Church of Christ.

I don’t agree with the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox views on this issue. They clearly contradict much of Scripture, logic, and common sense. Remember saint Paul and the rest of the Apostles said after the great falling away that antichrist would be sitting in the Temple of God showing himself as God and be a lawless one, doing iniquitous things that have not been done since the foundation of the world until then or will be done after, and be the world-deceiver. The Temple of God is the Body of Christ so therefore it is clear that in the last days there was to be a great apostasy within the Church so that the majority of Christians would fall away and follow antichrist and his lawless ways, thereby cutting themselves off from Christ, only having the name of the Church and appearing outwardly to be Christ’s disciples to the undiscerning worldly eye, but clearly manifest to the Lord and his true servants as in the Parable of the Wheat and the Tares.

Polycarp and Ignatius were not living in the time of Great Falling Away like we are now. But the Church is still the same Church as it was then. Those who have the faith of Jesus and keep the commandments of God.

 

[prodromos]

I don’t agree with the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox views on this issue. They clearly contradict much of Scripture, logic, and common sense.

I was raised Evangelical but have since converted to Eastern Orthodoxy because it correctly interprets Scripture, is incredibly consistent and is loaded with common sense. Without you giving specific examples, I have no idea where you get theses ideas from, but your general statement is completely contrary to what I have experienced.

 

[True Science]

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[Gregory the NonTheologian]

Hello Gregory,

The Church is a spiritual entity and organism which is IN CHRIST. Such that will not be plucked from the Father's hand and the Gates of Sheol will not prevail against. But it is not of this world/system and is not bound to any particular physical genealogical succession of men and their earthly organizations. I know exactly where you are going with this but Paul understood this when he told the Galatians that if even an angels and apostles, even him preached different than what they had received that they were to be anathematized. The Scripture prophesied of a time of worldwide Great Apostasy. We are in that time and have been for some time. It had to come before the Antichrist could. Unfortunately because of this the Church is in state of not so good confusion, and disorganization and picking up pieces, like an individual assembly would after a vicious wave of persecution. It is prophesied that at the times of the 4th Beast Daniel, the Little Horn was to wear out the saints of the Most High and speak blasphemous words against God and think to change his Laws and Appointed Times. But though a great battle may have heavily done damage to the Church, the war is hers always in the end, for she is in the King of king and Lord of lords. We must with much trouble enter the Kingdom and though things look grim and hopeless now more than ever for the Church we must all the more put on the shield of faith in the Lord's promise as we see the Day approaching. We must have confidence because we have reason to since all his Words are coming to pass just as foretold, and therefore we can have assurance that though the carnal eye may perceive that either the Church has fallen and the promise failed or else it is in traditions, doctrines, and organizations of man, we know that his Word is true and that his Church is spiritual and the Kingdom is not of this world/system. Solomon said history repeats itself, everything new is old, what has been will be again, there is nothing new under the sun. Just as in the days of old most of Israel apostatized, so also it is now. Just as then the Lord had a remnant according to the election of grace, “I have reserved for myself 5000 men who have not bowed the knee to Ba’al,” so he has now with today’s Israel of God reserved for him his “little flock,” the elect that it is not possible to deceive effectually, those who follow the narrow way that few find. Let us therefore not judge according to the flesh, according to the appearance, but let us judge with righteous spiritually minded judgment which is the One True Catholic Church of Christ.

I don’t agree with the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox views on this issue. They clearly contradict much of Scripture, logic, and common sense. Remember saint Paul and the rest of the Apostles said after the great falling away that antichrist would be sitting in the Temple of God showing himself as God and be a lawless one, doing iniquitous things that have not been done since the foundation of the world until then or will be done after, and be the world-deceiver. The Temple of God is the Body of Christ so therefore it is clear that in the last days there was to be a great apostasy within the Church so that the majority of Christians would fall away and follow antichrist and his lawless ways, thereby cutting themselves off from Christ, only having the name of the Church and appearing outwardly to be Christ’s disciples to the undiscerning worldly eye, but clearly manifest to the Lord and his true servants as in the Parable of the Wheat and the Tares.

Polycarp and Ignatius were not living in the time of Great Falling Away like we are now. But the Church is still the same Church as it was then. Those who have the faith of Jesus and keep the commandments of God.

Hi,

I wasn't really going anywhere - just asking what you believe comprises the "True Church".

I'm not sure I understood your answer completely, but by your statement, "The Church is a spiritual entity and organism which is IN CHRIST", do you mean that the Church does not exist on earth? If I am misunderstanding, then which "denominations" in your opinion are part of the "True Church".

Thanks.

 

[Gregory the NonTheologian]

I have looked into Orthodoxy seriously considering it,

Just out of curiosity, if you don't mind my asking, how many Eastern Orthodox services did you attend before you concluded that the Eastern Orthodox Church was in error?

 

[True Science]

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[Gregory the NonTheologian]

I considered attending a local Syrian Orthodox church of which one of its leaders admitted to my wife that the church was in spiritual prostitution but that they were the true and ancient way.

That's interesting.

Not that it's relevant, but the Syrian Orthodox Church (and the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and others) are not in communion with the Eastern Orthodox Church. They broke off in the 5th century to form what is known as the Oriental Orthodox Church.

Do you know why, specifically, this leader said that their church was in "spiritual prostitution"?

I don't think I could attend one without sinning since I would be forced to disrupt and expose all of the evil and could not participate in it.

I don't think there is anything wrong with a vigorous pursuit of truth.

If you don't mind my asking, what is one evil that you consider in the Eastern Orthodox Church. Not a comprehensive list - maybe what you consider the most obvious thing. I assure you I won't be offended.

I don't think there are any denominations which are the true church. Christ is not divided. The true Church is the local Church. God's true people love each other and are together as one. It is very hard to find in this in the world but it exists.

But I assume you exclude the Orthodox Churches (and the Roman Catholic Church) as not being the true Church. Are there any other branches that are not, in your opinion, the true Church".

I know you think a lot of this is wrong and that I'm speaking falsely about you church, but I know I am not, and hopefully I can write material on this issue to in detail show why I am right.

Yes, I am interested in your opinions. Answering the above question about one obvious evil that you see in the Eastern Orthodox Church would be helpful for me.

 

[True Science]

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[Gregory the NonTheologian]

The issue was was the way women were coming into that church dressed and it was allowed.

I assume you have 1 Corinthians 11:5-6 and 1 Timothy 2:9 in mind here?

It seems that you are speaking of the Oriental Orthodox churches you have visited, but I can honestly confirm that this happens frequently in Eastern Orthodox churches as well. I have been to Eastern Orthodox churches in Russia, the Ukraine, and Nazareth, and all women dress modestly with their heads covered at the services in these places, but it varies in the Eastern Orthodox churches that I have visited in the Americas, Europe, and Asia. In my particular church, about half of the women dress very modestly, but I have also been to monasteries and convents in the U.S. where women are given head coverings if they are not wearing one. There is usually also a basket of scarves at the entrance to most Eastern Orthodox churches I have been to.

In ancient times they would surely be corrected and if they refused, which a lot would today no doubt do, they would be excommunicated.

By "ancient times", do you mean the early Christian Church? Is it true that such persons would be excommunicated?

One of the biggest issues is moral laxity and the belief that one does not have to stop sinning completely to be saved and that it is not possible.

I think the way I would summarize the Eastern Orthodox mindset is that we can expect to struggle against sin our entire lives, because our sinful flesh, the world and the devil all conspire against us. As a result, we must always be extremely attentive to our every thought and action. The goal in this is not that we expect some kind of big reward at the end (cf. Luke 17:10), but rather that we are trying to orient our lives toward their true purpose, which is union with God (cf. 1 Thessalonians 5:9-10), which becomes possible when we have purified our lives (cf. Matthew 5:8), which is a lifelong process of aligning our will with the will of God (cf. Matthew 6:10), with our free will cooperating with the grace that God has granted us.

We do not believe that it is impossible to stop sinning, but we also believe that this is beyond the strength of most people. As such, regardless of our spiritual state, we work out our salvation in fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12), praying almost continuously for God's mercy.

Ethiopians must be huge Judaizers too. Wonder where they got that from. Have you ever read their extra NT books? You would then know. Is that really from Apostles and Apostolic Fathers? Is it true or a lie? I don't think they have ever been condemned by any of the other Catholic churches for this.

I don't think that the Ethiopian Orthodox have any extra New Testament books, but they do include a couple of books in the Old Testament that are not in the canon of any other Church that I am aware of.

I would say that the reason you have never heard of this particular issue being condemned is because the Oriental Orthodox churches have been considered under anathema for monophysitism since the 5th century by churches which accept the canons of at least the first four Ecumenical councils. It would become an issue if communion were to be restored between the Ethiopian and Eastern Orthodox Churches, since the Ethiopian Church would have to accept the Old Testament canon that was affirmed in subsequent Ecumenical councils.

 

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[True Science]

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[True Science]

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[Gregory the NonTheologian]

I'm sure stuff like this or similar this is pretty much across the board for most EO

What makes you believe that?

In any case, I was asking if there was any specific Eastern Orthodox doctrine that you disagree with

 

[prodromos]

I have never visited one of those churches. My wife did that. But I cannot agree with them so it is pointless. I will not change my stance. I believe I would be in apostasy then and damned for compromising for the sake of unity.

Once I was in an FB Orthodox group and one Ethiopian was in there and he had all sorts stuff in his profile that is basically porn, but they never did anything about it, or kicked him out, and how could he still be part of his Church when he lives like that. And like people don't know. Apparently my friend told me that he heard that in the Ethiopian Church they only the Eucharist to infants and old people because it is just assumed that everyone is not worthy enough. That is how bad things apparently are. I'm sure stuff like this or similar this is pretty much across the board for most EO and OO and RCC. That basically almost everyone is living a wretched life.

The Internet will not give you a genuine experience and understanding of the Orthodox Church, your last statements making that patently clear. I am amazed that you are so quick to judge as false something you have never actually investigated in person
My only suggestion at this point, since you are adamant that you cannot agree with Orthodoxy, is to read the lives of the Saints, particularly some of those who were recognised in recent years such as Elder Paisios, Elder Porphyrios and Saint Nectarios. If you are able you find a copy of the book, I heartily recommend "The Ascetic of Love" which recounts the life of Abbess Gavrilia. These people are the fruits of Orthodox Christianity, which provides the means by which we can all become holy if we avail ourselves of those means.

 

[Wgw]

I have never visited one of those churches. My wife did that. But I cannot agree with them so it is pointless. I will not change my stance. I believe I would be in apostasy then and damned for compromising for the sake of unity.

Once I was in an FB Orthodox group and one Ethiopian was in there and he had all sorts stuff in his profile that is basically porn, but they never did anything about it, or kicked him out, and how could he still be part of his Church when he lives like that. And like people don't know. Apparently my friend told me that he heard that in the Ethiopian Church they only the Eucharist to infants and old people because it is just assumed that everyone is not worthy enough. That is how bad things apparently are. I'm sure stuff like this or similar this is pretty much across the board for most EO and OO and RCC. That basically almost everyone is living a wretched life.

The Ethiopian Orthodox are as a rule extremely conservative in matters that could be described as relating to sexual morality. In fact they are extemely conservative in everything. It is an urban legend that only the very young and very old communicate, although it is true they communicate more commonly than other groups, but on the whole Ethiopian eucharistic theology is essentially the same as that of the other churches in the Oriental Orthodox communion.

It is entirely false that all Orthodox lead a wretched life; I was a Protestant, and my opinion is that the Orthodox are a kinder, gentler, more morally principled people. I have had fewer problems with canonical Eastern and Oriental Orthodox than with Protestants and Catholics. For that matter, I have had fewer problems with Catholics compared to some Protestants; I would actively avoid unneccessary contact with someone I knew to be a Calvinist, for example.

 

[True Science]

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